E72 Does Ambition Make You A Worse Person?

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[00:00:00.260] - Oliver (Host)

If you have someone in your life who doesn't bring you anything, César - a waste of space, a dead waste, someone...just a hanger on - do you cut them off, out of ambition?

[00:00:10.760] - Oliver (Host)

Of course.

[00:00:11.640] - Oliver (Host)

Of course. This is an awkward thing to do with the camera, but I'm cutting you off.

[00:00:16.860] - César (Guest)

¿Cómo? (What do you mean?)

[00:00:19.220] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, okay. But before we get there, welcome back to English and Beyond, the advanced level of the podcast for conversational English, for increasing your fluency, for things like that, all that jazz. As always, we have a free transcript. We have vocab games, et cetera, at morethanalanguage.com. My name is Oliver and I am an English teacher.

[00:00:39.120] - César (Guest)

I'm César.

[00:00:40.260] - Oliver (Host)

And you are a...

[00:00:41.360] - César (Guest)

Spanish teacher.

[00:00:42.130] - Oliver (Host)

There we go. So we will leave you with the episode. How would you describe yourself as an ambitious person?

[00:00:48.780] - César (Guest)

I think I'm ambitious, but maybe I don't have the drive to be as ambitious as I want to be.

[00:00:55.170] - Oliver (Host)

I think you've got drive. You work really hard. I mean, I can't actually...

[00:01:00.740] - César (Guest)

This (bleep) ambulance.

[00:01:02.040] - Oliver (Host)

That's true.

[00:01:03.920] - Oliver (Host)

Actually, that makes me feel bad.

[00:01:06.020] - César (Guest)

I think I like to be more ambitious. I think I lack, like, the drive.

[00:01:13.220] - Oliver (Host)

You lack the drive.

[00:01:14.300] - César (Guest)

I like the drive to be...

[00:01:16.040] - Both

You lack. I lack. Not like. I lack. Like. Lack. I lack the drive.

[00:01:24.860] - César (Guest)

I think I'd like to be more ambitious, but I think I don't have enough drive to be as ambitious as I'd like to be. What about you?

[00:01:34.320] - Oliver (Host)

I think I'm incredibly ambitious, but I have... Well, I think I'm mostly pretty ambitious, but I definitely don't have the drive. Although actually, we were with some people recently this weekend, the past weekend. I was mentioning to this woman that for the first time in about five years, I found myself without the motivation to go to the gym. I love going to the gym and I've lost it. And she said to me, I have motivation, I have discipline. I was like, huh? But she's totally right. I think I have lots of ambition, but I don't have very much discipline.

[00:02:13.320] - César (Guest)

It depends because I think discipline comes after habit as well. Because with things like brushing your teeth, you're very disciplined.

[00:02:23.560] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose so. I think it's worrying that you would think that you require discipline to brush your teeth twice a day. But it is true that this has been a sticking point in our relationship without shaming you.

[00:02:37.510] - César (Guest)

Some people don't brush their teeth. Full stop.

[00:02:40.110] - Oliver (Host)

Full stop. Well, at least soon they won't have teeth to brush, so that's good. I mean, I find... I think that... Okay, well, that's an interesting point. I think that it is true that there are things that I take for granted as being the minimum that you would do, that for other people would be examples of discipline, like brushing my teeth twice a day.

[00:03:02.620] - César (Guest)

Using sunscreen. You use sunscreen in a way that I'm not disciplined enough to do.

[00:03:09.160] - Oliver (Host)

I just don't think of that as discipline because fine, I brush my teeth and put on sunscreen, but you sit down and work for like 12 hours a day.

[00:03:17.290] - César (Guest)

Taking showers.

[00:03:20.300] - Oliver (Host)

I'm kidding.

[00:03:21.130] - Oliver (Host)

That's just evidence that I have basic hygiene standards.

[00:03:25.080] - César (Guest)

Well, again, not everyone has those standards, those basic standards.

[00:03:30.000] - Oliver (Host)

I would say that I am ambitious because there are lots of things that I want to accomplish. There are lots of things that I want to do, but I don't think I'm-

[00:03:35.580] - César (Guest)

So many languages you want to learn.

[00:03:36.840] - Oliver (Host)

Exactly. But you always talk about, now that we are entrepreneurs, now that we are basically self-employed, you always talk about the importance of avoiding shiny object syndrome, where you see something new and you think, Oh, I want to do that. That obviously is a type of ambition as well, isn't it? Realising that there are lots of things do in the world and wanting to do all of them, and that's obviously impossible. You do have to make your choices.

[00:04:04.640] - César (Guest)

So many things to do, so many places to visit, so many dishes to try out.

[00:04:11.700] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, but time is limited.

[00:04:14.720] - César (Guest)

And I think, yeah, learning how to avoid that shiny object is really, really important because otherwise you end up starting many things and not finishing anything.

[00:04:24.750] - Oliver (Host)

And I think that actually that idea of the shiny object and there being many things you start not finishing is actually evidence of something that I'm coming to realise is perhaps true with age, which is that I always took ambition as being a good thing. I've always thought it was good to be ambitious, good to have high standards, good to to do those things, and to always need more. I think that now for the first time, I may be starting to think in the last couple of years that actually ambition is not necessarily a good thing. Because it's true also that when I am around I'm around ambitious people, I find it quite tiresome. When I'm around people that are very, very-

[00:05:08.210] - César (Guest)

Drive.

[00:05:08.210] - Oliver (Host)

Driven. (Driven.) I'm a bit like, There are more important things in life. And I find that a lot of the time I don't allow myself to enjoy things that I'm doing because I'm basically like, Oh, well, this is time that is not well spent. I could be using this time to drive towards more ambitious endeavours.

[00:05:26.540] - César (Guest)

Yeah, I agree with you. You cannot always want to need more or want more in life because otherwise you will never be satisfied. I think it's almost instinctive that we are ambitious as human beings. The craving for discovery.

[00:05:47.040] - Oliver (Host)

The craving.

[00:05:47.840] - César (Guest)

The craving to discover new places or new people. But at the same time, if you always want more and more and more and more, you will be very miserable, so I think it's important to be ambitious, then enjoy what you have achieved or even accept that you didn't achieve what you wanted and then go for something else. I remember that someone told me in London many years ago, before we met and everything, that in London, many people were never satisfied because they always wanted something better. They wanted a better place to live. So they were moving all the time. They were looking for someone better on Tinder. They were dating all the time, different people, being in a 'two months' relationships. Changing jobs all the time because they wanted to do better and make more money. So I don't know.

[00:06:45.460] - César (Guest)

I guess it depends on your age as well. I think if you are going to be ambitious in life, it's better to be ambitious when you are in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s than when you are 70 or 80. Because I think that's at least what I expect from that time in my life, myself, is that -

[00:07:04.350] - Oliver (Host)

You hope to be happier with what you've accomplished.

[00:07:07.380] - César (Guest)

I want to enjoy without thinking, I need to thrive. I want to enjoy life.

[00:07:11.540] - Oliver (Host)

I think that's a really interesting point, though, because I'm sure it's like I always used to absent-mindedly or offhandedly say to my parents, and my parents would agree that if someone gets to 85 or 90, that it's not that big a deal when they do die, it's obviously sad for them and their family, but they've lived a long life. Now that my dad is at 85, I think his attitude to that is very different. I think it's a little bit like that with what you're saying with the ambition, it's very well for you, us, and I'm not criticising or disagreeing with you, really, at 37 to be like, Oh, well, I hope that my ambitions are done by the time I'm 55, 60. But I'm sure that when you are 55, you will have exactly the same number of ambitions because you are that person that always has goals. And always wants to accomplish more.

[00:08:02.030] - César (Guest)

But I'm hoping to have a different type of goal.

[00:08:04.140] - Oliver (Host)

But are they not going to be ambition still? Just because they're different types?

[00:08:12.040] - César (Guest)

Yeah, but I guess what I'm trying to do is build something now so that in the future, my ambition is more related with learning, discovering new places, learning crafts like pottery.

[00:08:27.310] - Oliver (Host)

I'm going to have to set, to get Siri to set a reminder for 20 years because I'd be surprised if you are nicer to yourself about those ambitions and you have this kind of... If you manage to find this kind of nice, relaxed rhythm, I'd be surprised. But we'll see, we'll see. I hope so for you, and for me.

[00:08:43.980] - César (Guest)

I'm trying to balance out now ambition. I feel like I'm talking as if I were super ambitious. (But you are ambitious.) I think I'm ambitious enough, but at the same time, I try to balance out the ambition with wanting to get things in life and enjoying life at the same time because otherwise, it's so boring and tedious.

[00:09:06.880] - Oliver (Host)

There's no point doing it if you don't eventually enjoy it. That is, I think, the irony of the rat race, the irony of the -

[00:09:15.100] - Oliver (Host)

Drag Race?

[00:09:15.580] - Oliver (Host)

The Rat Race. (Ah, the Rat Race.) To win money, or to earn money and to win plaudits, et cetera. But you also said something else that I find really interesting because it's an opportunity for me to bring in my Latin studies, which is you talked about London.

[00:09:32.680] - César (Guest)

London?

[00:09:33.760] - Oliver (Host)

London?

[00:09:38.000] - Oliver (Host)

I'll put into the episode the context so that people can understand that, which is a short montage from coronation street of every time people in the north of England mention London and they're horrified at the mention of it.

[00:09:51.880] - Coronation Street

I'm on my way to London. London? She's on her way to London. London? I got London this afternoon. I'll be out your hair then. London? London? Going to London. London? I might give London a go. London?

[00:10:09.550] - Oliver (Host)

London is obviously a huge, thriving, bustling metropolis, et cetera, et cetera. And your friend or mentor or colleague, whoever said this to you, said that it's full of people who are never happy with what they've got, always need more, always are very ambitious. It's interesting that you should say that, because back in ancient Rome. One of my favourite poets wrote Satires, some satirical poems about city life or about life, modern life, which was modern to him. The poet was called Horace, and he wrote a few poems, actually, about how trivial the city is, how bored he is of all of the gossip and the ambition, how shallow everyone is, how everyone is just interested in who you know, what they can get for you, that it never - He basically wakes up and it's snowing and he has to get out of bed and go and do his job, which basically involves doing tasks for other people. He feels like he never gets a moment of just quiet reflection for himself to do the stuff that he really enjoys. And so he says that he likes to go out to the country where he has a country house that basically has been bought for him by his patron, which is - you might find interesting, you - because I think you can say in Spanish, a patron.

[00:11:33.000] - César (Guest)

Patrón.

[00:11:33.760] - Oliver (Host)

Patrón. Or you can say a mecenas. (Mecenas.) And Mecenas is basically that is the name of this guy, Maecenas, who was basically a patron for the Arts for the Emperor at that time. He basically had all of these relationships with all these creative people, and he sponsored them. The way that he sponsored Horace was to buy him a house. Then the idea was that Horace would write great works of art during this Emperor's reign, and by virtue of that, create a golden age of literature. He had lots of artists doing this thing. It's quite interesting that his name now is literally the word for patron in Spanish. Is it interesting?

[00:12:13.630] - César (Guest)

Yeah, it is interesting. I knew the story.

[00:12:16.100] - César (Guest)

Okay, I'm going to delete that anyway. It's very relatable. You've got to be like, Oh, wow, how interesting, so I can edit it all out.

[00:12:22.240] - César (Guest)

Oh, wow, how interesting. So this person was feeling the same thing that people feel nowadays.

[00:12:30.000] - Oliver (Host)

Exactly.

[00:12:30.520] - César (Guest)

What is the point of waking up every morning, getting my tupperware from the fridge, go to an office for 10 hours?

[00:12:38.350] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, not doing anything for your own benefit. But just time to climb the greasy pole, we say, to go up the promotion ladder. And for what? Because this poet was very clear that what he enjoyed doing was having simple food with simple friends, nice people that he was interested - I mean, what he considered simple was talking about philosophy and stuff like that in his little country house. But the point that I'm trying to make is that even 2000 years ago, people still have identified the city as a place full of vain, superficial, ambitious people who only really cared about where they could get in life. And so there were loads of poems from that period of them being like, I'm done with the city, it's time for me to leave. I think it's quite interesting. The one thing that I think I about classics is that so much changes and yet nothing does.

[00:13:34.700] - César (Guest)

The human remains the same, right? (Yeah.) And human needs. Do you think talking about nice people and ambition, do you think ambitious people tend to be less nice or they need to be colder and more straight to the point, not aggressive, but very assertive?

[00:13:55.680] - Oliver (Host)

Well, as I always do, I'm going to go on a very roundabout way of saying this, which is that for our honeymoon, the hotels that we stayed in were much nicer than usual, obviously because it was the honeymoon, right? And by the end of that holiday, I had become so used to standards of holidays and living that I would never normally expect. The trouble is, it's a little bit like that with ambition. I think it is very difficult to be an ambitious person and to do networking and to think, Oh, how do I get the most out of this opportunity without then starting to consider every relationship in your life through that lens. I think that part of kind of like Instagram hustle culture encourages you to be like, does this person serve me? Does this I can add or take away from my life? But sometimes if you are very ambitious, I think that your definition of serving can be like, does this person help me in my career? And I think that's a very sad way to view ambition.

[00:14:59.290] - César (Guest)

But that's Instagram. Instagram, because the reality, when I met someone who is very successful from the point of view of having a big company with employees, all that, they're actually quite human and quite nice. I'm thinking of two women, specifically, that I know very well.

[00:15:16.300] - Oliver (Host)

I know one of them that you mean, your mentor.

[00:15:19.360] - César (Guest)

She's not like that anymore.

[00:15:22.780] - Oliver (Host)

She turned.

[00:15:24.070] - César (Guest)

She's not like that at all. So I think it's more like because Instagram is so full of (bleep).

[00:15:30.360] - Oliver (Host)

Well, no, but it's not just Instagram because I was talking about that culture, but I know people in real life that are like that. And I don't know whether... I think it is something that happens to a lot of people. And again, I think it's something that happens in big cities more than - like in a city like Valencia, which is not a big city. It's not a small city, but it's not a big city. I don't get that vibe that I do get when I'm in, for example, London or Barcelona or Madrid.

[00:15:52.320] - César (Guest)

Don't you think it will get better when the leadership is formed by millennials and Gen Z?

[00:16:00.620] - Oliver (Host)

No, because I think in every generation, the people that get to the leadership are the people who are ambitious. Not in every case. In your friend, for example, it's not like that, but in the vast majority of cases. Okay. So thank you very much for the discussion, César. (Thank you. It's a pleasure.) We'll see you next time. See you. Follow, subscribe, like. Bye.

[00:16:23.750] - César (Guest)

That's lacking ambition!