E70: What We Owe Our Families (and What We Don’t)

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[00:00:02.500] - Oliver (Host)

Do you love your family, or do you just tolerate them? Or do you feel like that's a stupid question? Maybe you feel like your answer to the question doesn't even matter. You don't really have a choice. You're stuck with your relatives anyway. After all, we use the phrase in English, Our Chosen Family, to denote the friends that we surround ourselves with. And the phrase is designed to highlight that we don't have a choice about the family we're born into. You can't choose your mother or select your father, and you have to put up with your siblings. And yet, for some of us, if our family causes us enough grief, the next step is a no-brainer. It's one you don't even have to think about. Cut them out. Cut them off. Stop all contact completely. And then for other people, people who can't stand their parents, they have to see them every day and they're stuck there, or at least they feel that way. Maybe they rely on their family financially, or maybe they come from a culture where there's a heavy social expectation that they'll look after their ageing parents, or maybe they simply feel like it's the right thing to do, even if they are personally suffering.

[00:01:14.760] - Oliver (Host)

And then we have families like one of the most famous British families, the Beckhams. This episode was, I confess, partly prompted by the recent and very public tension involving David and Victoria, sorry, Lord and Lady Beckham, now, and their son, Brooklyn, and his billionaire new wife. There have been statements, social media posts, the usual speculation, none of it that detailed until now. Recently, Brooklyn released an embarrassing and excoriating statement on Instagram, criticising his parents for being image-obsessed and prioritising their celebrity status above all else, and for trying to drive him and his wife apart. Now, as always, I simultaneously don't think this really matters. After all, why should we even care about someone else's family drama? But at the same time, I find it fascinating to see how people respond, and people have responded. Forums are full of people giving their two pennies' worth or two cents' worth, if you're more into US English. Serious newspapers are writing tongue-in-cheek editorials about the Beckhams' problems. But the thing that's interesting about it for me is that in almost all of these responses, people are relating the problems that the Beckhams are having back to the issues that they have had with their own families.

[00:02:38.020] - Oliver (Host)

And what is the real problem with this famous family, with the Beckhams? What seems to be at the centre of it isn't the billions and millions that these families have, or celebrity scandal. But something familiar to many of us: family disagreement, specifically family disagreement around a partner, and the difficulty some parents seem to have accepting the adult choices of children. Strip away the fame, and it's a situation most people recognise quite well. Adult independence colliding with parental expectations. Loyalty shifting. Family members starting to openly express old resentments. Essentially, in a phrase, family dynamics refusing to adjust to new realities. What makes this case different, of course, is the public element. When family tension plays out under constant scrutiny, even small gestures, like liking a post on social media or not liking a post on social media, these start to carry meaning, that the underlying issue is very, very ordinary. So that's what we're going to be talking about today, César and I - family tension, falling out, and how different people in different cultures deal with conflict inside families. Some families argue openly, like mine. Others suppress it. Some see cutting contact as unthinkable, whereas others see it as a healthy boundary.

[00:04:04.120] - Oliver (Host)

This episode isn't about celebrity gossip. It's about how conflict works when the people involved aren't just casual acquaintances or work colleagues, but for better or worse, people of your own flesh and blood.

[00:04:17.560] - Oliver (Host)

Welcome back to English and Beyond, the advanced version of the podcast. As ever, if you find it difficult to understand anything in the podcast, we have the transcript, flashcards, vocab games, vocab lists, everything there, and all of that for free on our website, morethanalangguage.com. My name is Oliver. I'm an English and Spanish teacher. And if this is your first time listening to the podcast, I hope you enjoy it.

[00:04:44.620] - Oliver (Host)

Hello, César. How are you?

[00:04:45.700] - César (Guest)

Hello, I'm good. How are you? (I'm okay, thank you.) I'm excited about this topic.

[00:04:49.380] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah? Because you're fundamentally a gossip or what's the reason?

[00:04:53.960] - César (Guest)

Because I'm always falling out with my family. No, I'm not. Well, I think it's like a universal topic. I guess it depends on your culture, that the relationship with your family will be different.

[00:05:07.460] - Oliver (Host)

I think that is an interesting point to make that we should definitely come back to.

[00:05:10.640] - César (Guest)

But yeah, I think it's a very interesting topic with lots of interesting vocabulary that you might come up with.

[00:05:18.620] - Oliver (Host)

Well, we'll see. Obviously, this was partially inspired by the troubles of the Beckham clan, the Beckham family at the moment. But I think that it is something that is quite relatable to everybody. Have you ever had a big falling out with anyone in your family?

[00:05:35.740] - César (Guest)

Not a big falling out, but obviously, I've had some arguments or some moments of tension, prolonged in time.

[00:05:45.580] - Oliver (Host)

So you've never had a blazing row with someone? (No.) Well, do you know what a blazing row is?

[00:05:52.360] - César (Guest)

I know what a row is.

[00:05:53.650] - Oliver (Host)

Okay, what's a row? (A falling out.) Yeah, a row is a falling out. It's an argument. And blazing is to blaze is to do with burning. So blazing row is something that's like... It's a row that's so big and great that it's like on fire.

[00:06:07.250] - César (Guest)

Yeah. No, I've never stopped talking to anyone. But I do know people who have stopped talking to their parents, their siblings. It normally boils down to money, or it's related - (In your experience) - with money. But sometimes it's about relationships that the parents don't accept or things like that.

[00:06:32.490] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, the characteristics of their children that they won't accept and the children won't back down because they can't or whatever.

[00:06:39.920] - César (Guest)

But you should explain what happened to this very famous British family.

[00:06:43.740] - Oliver (Host)

Well, to an extent, I've already covered it in the monologue, but what you have an opportunity. That's why I didn't know. But essentially what it is, we assume not about money. We don't know very much, except that Brooklyn Beckham has issued an Instagram post in which he has explained some of the reasons he's not happy with his family. It seems that it fundamentally comes down to the fact that they don't like his wife very much, which I think you said you talked about money, but I think relationships is also a huge reason why. Yeah, Yeah, people.

[00:07:15.650] - César (Guest)

That's what I said, yeah.

[00:07:17.080] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah. Romantic relationships that don't like the partners of their children, things like that. My mum, my parents have got lots of children, and I think it's fair to say that my parents have some of the partners more than others. I think that actually my mum feels so relieved now because she likes all of her children's partners. She actively likes them.

[00:07:39.100] - César (Guest)

And all of us respect her dogs as well.

[00:07:41.790] - Oliver (Host)

I respect her dogs. That's true, because my mum turned against one of my brother's girlfriends when she thought that my mum wasn't looking and she pushed the pug away with her foot. My mum was like - dead to me. That relationship didn't last very long after that.

[00:07:56.900] - César (Guest)

Her name was Nicola. Yeah.

[00:08:00.000] - Oliver (Host)

I could have been Nicola Peltz's brother-in-law. I think for billions of, maybe I'm immoral, but for billions of dollars, I probably would have overlooked the pug pushing personally.

[00:08:10.380] - César (Guest)

I was thinking about the Beckham and thinking how difficult it must be being under the public eye, the public scrutiny.

[00:08:19.640] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, in the public eye, we say.

[00:08:21.220] - César (Guest)

In the public eye. Thank you. Because even when you are no one, no one knows you, it's also important for many people keeping the appearances up.

[00:08:33.440] - Oliver (Host)

Keeping up appearances. No, keeping the appearances up, I think is... If we weren't looking out for mistakes, if a native speaker said to me keeping the appearances up, I think I probably would think that sounds a bit weird. We would normally say keeping up appearances. The difficulty, the nightmare of phrasal verbs.

[00:08:54.960] - César (Guest)

Yeah. Well, so I guess it must be really difficult for them having everyone making memes because at the end of the day, it's their son.

[00:09:07.660] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah.

[00:09:08.180] - César (Guest)

No?

[00:09:08.870] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I think it's quite interesting that when you look at what Brooklyn Beckham said, apparently previously, before this actual statement, he talked about the fact that he felt that his parents were harassing him by liking his content on Instagram, which is a very 2026 complaint to have, how engagement with your family.

[00:09:28.740] - César (Guest)

You're stalking me by liking a post.

[00:09:31.060] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, but I suppose it is a little bit like lots of people do.

[00:09:35.440] - César (Guest)

It could be like a passive-aggressive way to say, Hey, I'm here. I'm watching.

[00:09:40.140] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah. I think it's true that sometimes little things, little problems can tip you over the edge. And so he obviously hasn't turned against his parents because his parents liked his Instagram post. But that is something that has annoyed him because of the long history that he feels that he has with them. And I think that that's quite interesting.

[00:10:03.840] - César (Guest)

But what about you? Have you ever fallen out with someone in your family? Have you had a feud with a member of your-

[00:10:13.740] - Oliver (Host)

I've fallen out with everyone in my family, but I think that that speaks to how different my family is from yours. I've never had... Do you know, ironically, actually, the person I'd probably... Well, my mum, obviously, as we've spoken about many times in this podcast, which my dad, I think, complains a bit about because he doesn't get enough of a mention, although he probably will in this episode. She is someone I have an incredibly close relationship to. I'm very, very loyal to her. When my mum and my dad have an argument, you can 100% count me to be on my mom's side. And that's not just because I'm loyal, but also because I think I do think much more like my mum than like my dad. And so most of the time in an argument, I will agree with her point of view anyway. I think almost always. And if I don't, I'll probably just be quiet. But probably the most decisive falling out I've had with anyone, ironically, has been with her, where it was not for very long at all. Because when I say I've had falling out, we've had lots of arguments because I have a way more tempestuous family than you. We argued every single day when I was growing up, it would be arguments about important things, personal things, arguments about celebrities, arguments about everything.

[00:11:27.160] - Oliver (Host)

My parents find it hard not to argue. I find it hard not to argue. We all found it hard not to argue.

[00:11:32.280] - César (Guest)

You don't avoid conflict within your family?

[00:11:35.050] - Oliver (Host)

We do not avoid conflict, yeah. I've had arguments with everybody, and there have been times I'd be like, I never want to see that person ever again. But the only time I can remember having a big argument where I actively didn't want to talk to someone for a period was actually with my mum. I think that that speaks to how close we are, the fact that when we upset each other, we would not back down. Because I suppose my mom's opinion matters to me so much that when she was very negative to me about a certain event, I took it so much more personally than I would if anyone else basically said it to me. And my mum also is, I think a strength or a fault, I suppose, is that she's very strong-willed. Obviously, the negative version of that would be stubborn. And she basically said something to me I was very upset about, and she wouldn't even countenance apologising. I was like, I will not talk to you because this has hurt my feelings so much. I never would say something like that about my feelings because it's very not the kind of thing we would say in my family.

[00:12:46.500] - Oliver (Host)

And eventually, it took my sister basically messaging my mum to say, What are you doing? For us to end up having a conversation in which she gave me one of those apologies with reservations.

[00:12:58.460] - César (Guest)

I'm sorry, you feel that way.

[00:13:00.300] - Oliver (Host)

Exactly. But for my mum, that is a big thing. I know that it meant a lot to me, and I know that she'll have meant it. But that, ironically, I would say is the biggest falling out I've ever had with anyone in my family because I talk to her every day. For me, not to talk to her for a long time really means something, whereas I don't talk to anyone else in my family every day. I talk to my sister quite often, but I don't talk to anyone else every day.

[00:13:27.520] - César (Guest)

Yeah, I see. Well, you know that in Spain, after Christmas this year, I don't know, it's been on the news, so I guess it's true, but they're saying that many people after Christmas, they are going to lawyers trying to disinherit their children.

[00:13:43.810] - Oliver (Host)

Oh, wow. I thought you were going to talk about divorce or something.

[00:13:46.240] - César (Guest)

No, that happens after summer holidays. (Divorce?) Divorce happening more often. But apparently, because it's very difficult to this inherit, your children in Spain, it's very difficult.

[00:13:57.850] - Oliver (Host)

Whereas in the UK, it's very easy.

[00:14:00.420] - César (Guest)

You need to talk to lawyers and do it. That proves that family and the Mediterranean version of families in Spain, Italy, Greece, where family is what matters the most. You need to do anything with someone who's blood-related, blah, blah, blah. I think it's shifting from (to) a more neutral vision of relatives, which obviously, I love my family because they're my family, but also because they care about me and I care about them and because they're nice to me, and I wonder - I think it must be really difficult when someone within your family is not treating you well and you want to make an effort to... I'm not thinking in (about) any specific case. Well, actually, I do know people who have terrible parents, and I think it must be really difficult, especially having a terrible mum or terrible dad.

[00:14:58.030] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I was absolutely staggered when I found out that in Spain there was a legal responsibility for children to look after their parents if their parents fall into poverty. And I found that absolutely shocking because if a child has to be made by the court to look after the parent -

[00:15:14.720] - César (Guest)

They're not children, as an adult child.

[00:15:16.820] - Oliver (Host)

No, yeah, exactly. So like grown up children. But if they're made by a court to look after their parents, it's only done on court order. Then clearly, that relationship is not a good relationship. And I think that they do take into account where a parent has been really abusive. But having to actually prove that to a court, I just think, just seems such an invasion of your right to support your family or not. Oh, you're right to basically have a family life or not. Why should you be forced to have a relationship with your parents? Actually, this is something that lots of Mediterranean people say to me, that one of the things that they think is better about Mediterranean culture than British culture, for instance, is the importance of family. But I think for us, for me personally, I prefer the British idea of it, because if your family deserves you to be nice to them, then you'll be nice to them.

[00:16:12.360] - Oliver (Host)

It's one of the basic Christian rulings, isn't it? To honour your parents. And that always seemed to me very, very odd, because for me, I can honour my parents because my parents are people I can respect. I can respect and love. And they were good parents. They took care of me. They cared about me. They worked hard so I would have a good life. But there are plenty of terrible parents. And the idea that you should, for me, respect someone purely because they happen to give birth to you. And in fact, actually, that phrase is misleading because obviously the man doesn't even give birth to you. The woman has to go through that work. But a man literally might have the smallest possible role in your life and then just be your terrible father after that. The idea that you should have to respect him or in a Mediterranean family, you stay in contact whatever they do to you. I think that seems terrible.

[00:17:01.090] - César (Guest)

I think when you have a terrible parent, what happens is that during your childhood, you look up to them no matter how they are. (I suppose.) Because I think there's something instinctive on (in) trying to find protection from your parents and wanting to impress them and all that. But then what happens in adulthood is that if you do realise that your childhood wasn't normal, you need to go through that and say, Okay, maybe I didn't get very lucky with my dad or with my mum. That's a very difficult puzzle to break (solve).

[00:17:34.670] - Oliver (Host)

I can see that. When I was a teacher, actually, sometimes students would come to me with problems about their family life, and they would tell you basically that they're being abused in various different ways, violently or emotionally or whatever. And obviously, I would always report this to the safeguarding people at the school, which is basically why the children want to talk to you. They want to to trust someone. But your responsibility, which you say to the children, or you should always say to the children immediately, is this cannot be confidential. If you tell me something worrying, I will.

[00:18:10.900] - César (Guest)

Their safety is the first thing.

[00:18:12.640] - Oliver (Host)

Exactly. Even if they don't want it to be the priority, it has to be the priority. Every single time that happened, that a child told me something about a problem at home, and I reported it to the next rung of childcare, the safeguarding person at my school, every single time, once it progressed to a certain period, the child then retracted, basically, what they had said. And I mean, very early on, because as you say, basically, the children couldn't even begin to cope with the idea of betraying their parent in that way, even though obviously it isn't a betrayal. But when you talk to the kids, they obviously they felt it was... Even when they knew their parents were abusive, they still loved them and still couldn't even countenance, they couldn't even imagine the idea of not being with them.

[00:19:13.020] - César (Guest)

I mean, that happens even in adult relationships where one member of the relationship, sentimental love relationship, feels abused or is being abused and finds very difficult to break up with that person. So I can imagine that being a child is even more difficult.

[00:19:32.510] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, because they are your, kind of, world. Lots of people talk about the process of realising that your parents aren't right about everything and don't know everything. Now that I am 37 years old and older than many people when they become parents, their idea that a child would think I know everything is quite -.

[00:19:53.960] - César (Guest)

Everything is figured out, right?

[00:19:55.120] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah. Okay, well, César, thank you very much for talking to me about this topic. Thank you. And, listener, please remember to subscribe, to like, to review, to comment, anything that will help.

[00:20:08.700] - César (Guest)

Actually, I'm interested in all because we have listeners from different countries, different cultures. How it is (is it) in your culture? Do you come from a Mediterranean culture? How is it, the family in your culture?

[00:20:20.920] - Oliver (Host)

Something more like the British one?

[00:20:22.530] - César (Guest)

How do you deal with conflict?

[00:20:24.140] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, good point. Okay, well, thank you very much, listener, and see you next time.

[00:20:28.660] - César (Guest)

Bye.