E62: The Art of Disappointing People

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[00:00:01.960] - Oliver (Host)

Okay, César. So last week, I said that I was going to talk about my father's negative feedback for the podcast. But I am unable to do that today.

[00:00:17.020] - César (Guest)

Is there any specific reason why you're unable to do it today?

[00:00:21.510] - Oliver (Host)

Well, the topic that I was going to discuss is patriotism, and we've tried to record an episode about it.

[00:00:28.760] - César (Guest)

We tried three times.

[00:00:31.020] - Oliver (Host)

I just can't make it work. I'm going to do it again next week because it's about the topic of patriotism. My dad is quite patriotic, and I think it's an interesting topic, a really interesting topic. But I think it's also quite a thorny issue, quite a politically controversial topic. And I want to do it, I want to do it well. And part of the reason for that is because I don't want to disappoint expectations. Not that anyone has any expectations, my expectations. So I want to do it well, basically.

[00:01:05.200] - César (Guest)

Maybe you should do... It just came to me. Maybe you should do with your dad?

[00:01:09.340] - Oliver (Host)

Well, he wouldn't want to do it on camera. And now we do have, for anyone listening on just the audio version, we do have a video version of this. And I don't think my dad would want to discuss it. He prefers to send me long texts, criticising everything I've said instead. So I don't think he'd actually want to have to, you know, put his money where his mouth is and discuss it with me on the podcast. So instead, what we're going to talk about this week is a filler episode. I don't even have a little monologue prepared. We're going to talk about disappointing expectations because even though no one listening will be disappointed - of the actual audience - one person will be, which is my sister, because I had promised her an explosive, controversial, drama-full, dramatic episode about patriotism and talking about my dad, and she'll be disappointed. So we're about to get on to that in a moment.

[00:02:01.640] - Oliver (Host)

But before that, welcome back to English and Beyond, the advanced version of the podcast. We try in this podcast to discuss unusual topics, or at least conventional topics from an unusual perspective. We have a free transcript and free vocabulary flashcards available at morethanalanguage.com. My name is Oliver. I am from the UK, and I am an English, Latin, and Spanish teacher. And you are?

[00:02:26.320] - César (Guest)

Who am I? I'm César, or César, I'm from Spain. I'm a Spanish teacher. I'm also a podcaster.

[00:02:36.420] - Oliver (Host)

You wouldn't know it, César. You're saying this as if you've been stopped on the street. This is literally your job. I suppose this is probably the first time that I've actually ever asked you to introduce yourself in the podcast. He's César.

[00:02:49.980] - César (Guest)

He's just César.

[00:02:51.180] - Oliver (Host)

No, not just César. An integral and incredibly important part of the podcast.

[00:02:57.750] - César (Guest)

Aw, really?

[00:02:58.230] - Oliver (Host)

Yes, of course. Now, back to the topic at hand, disappointing people, letting people down, failing to meet expectations. And as I say, no one actually had any expectations because I hadn't really discussed what we were going to talk about. But it made me think about disappointing expectations because this is something that I feel like I do quite often. We call it over-promising in English. Do you think you are somebody who over-promises? Over-promise and under-deliver is what we say.

[00:03:30.720] - César (Guest)

I try not to because I think I've learned that it's better to surprise people in a good way than in a bad way. So sometimes it's better to under-promise and then deliver more if you can.

[00:03:43.860] - Oliver (Host)

So under-promise and over-deliver. Yeah, exactly. We say that, too.

[00:03:46.740] - César (Guest)

Yeah. But I don't think... Like, back in the day when I was younger, when I was a teenager, when I was in my 20s, I guess I was more... I, I used to think more about what other people expected from me, and now I still do, but I've learned that I'm just a human being, that people disappoint me all the time, and I disappoint people all the time. I'm not saying it in a bad way. It's just like it is how it is.

[00:04:17.620] - Oliver (Host)

Do people disappoint you that often? Do you, honestly, do you regularly feel disappointed?

[00:04:21.770] - César (Guest)

I'm not talking about big disappointments. I'm talking about I was going to meet a friend yesterday, for example, and he dumped me last minute.

[00:04:29.350] - Oliver (Host)

He what you?

[00:04:29.810] - César (Guest)

Dump-ed me.

[00:04:31.420] - Oliver (Host)

He what you?

[00:04:32.400] - César (Guest)

Dumped. Dumped. Dumped. Dumped me.

[00:04:35.880] - Oliver (Host)

Dumped. Dumped is more like if you're going out with someone. You can say in this context, dumped, but I wouldn't.

[00:04:43.360] - César (Guest)

He ditched me.

[00:04:44.460] - Oliver (Host)

He ditched me. Yeah, that's very good. Because I'm a bit over the top, I would be like, He abandoned me. But he ditched. It's better. Dump is when you're going out with someone and you leave them. If you've got a romantic relationship.

[00:04:56.810] - César (Guest)

I actually... (No, I'm kidding.) No, so he ditched me. I was like, it's fine. I actually have been trying to meet with this friend for the last three weeks.

[00:05:09.760] - Oliver (Host)

He keeps ditching you.

[00:05:10.680] - César (Guest)

I was looking forward to it, but it didn't happen. It's fine. It wasn't a big disappointment.

[00:05:16.500] - Oliver (Host)

It sounds fine. It sounds fine.

[00:05:19.680] - César (Guest)

Yeah.

[00:05:20.260] - Oliver (Host)

It's fine.

[00:05:20.960] - César (Guest)

You (bleep). Sorry.

[00:05:22.880] - Oliver (Host)

That's all right, you're good. Okay.

[00:05:25.400] - César (Guest)

So I'm not talking about big disappointments, but just little disappointments.

[00:05:29.400] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I suppose I think one of the areas in which people frequently over promise and under deliver is work. But you feel that way about work sometimes, no?

[00:05:37.630] - César (Guest)

Of course.

[00:05:38.170] - Oliver (Host)

Because the other thing that made me think of this episode is that we had a little argument this morning where I was feeling frazzled after our third attempt to record this episode about patriotism. And I said to you, do you think it's better to just get it done, release it today, because I'm three days late, as I often am, or do you think that I just record it well today, edit it overnight, do a good job, and release it tomorrow. And you were like, Well, you really should have done it three days ago.

[00:06:11.500] - César (Guest)

I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

[00:06:15.740] - Oliver (Host)

That was the reality.

[00:06:18.180] - César (Guest)

What did you expect from me? What answer did you expect from me?

[00:06:23.090] - Oliver (Host)

To tell me whether you thought it was better today or tomorrow instead of three days ago. But you said three days ago, and that reminded me of the idea that, again, no one cares about my podcast, but with your podcast or with the Spanish podcast, more people do care. No? Should I even not be saying that no one cares about my podcast?

[00:06:41.300] - César (Guest)

Well, you shouldn't say that because I'm sure people do care, and more and more people care for your podcast, as we can see on the statistics. By the way, click the follow button if you haven't done it yet.

[00:06:52.420] - Oliver (Host)

If you want to give me some motivation to actually do it.

[00:06:54.240] - César (Guest)

It's actually really important for people to click, not only to help Oliver to grow the podcast, which is important, but also because I tend to listen more (to) the podcast(s) I'm following. I receive the notifications.

[00:07:06.820] - Oliver (Host)

I rang my mum when I went out to have a coffee with a friend.

[00:07:10.170] - César (Guest)

To criticise me?

[00:07:11.360] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I didn't ring her to criticise you, but to vent, to decompress.

[00:07:17.320] - César (Guest)

How did you decompress?

[00:07:20.740] - Oliver (Host)

And, well, I told her, I explained to her the situation, I was just saying, and to be fair to myself, I said, I know César is right. It's just, you know, I'm feeling a bit stressed and it wasn't helpful to hear it. I never said that you weren't right. But she said to me, I do love listening to my podcast the day it comes out. As in not my podcast, her favourite podcast.

[00:07:44.380] - César (Guest)

Did she said that?

[00:07:45.500] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah.

[00:07:45.940] - César (Guest)

Okay. Well because -

[00:07:46.880] - Oliver (Host)

Well, because my mum doesn't listen to my podcast ever.

[00:07:50.110] - César (Guest)

Yeah, I know. The podcast I listen to on a weekly basis, I know if it's a Thursday, I'm going to listen to the podcast in the afternoon. If it's not available, I'm like, Why is it not available? Of course, it's a free resource. It's entertainment, entertainment/education, and it's not vital. But -

[00:08:09.300] - Oliver (Host)

I don't think anyone... I think no one will feel disappointed when this podcast doesn't come on on a Thursday. Because it almost never comes out on the Thurusday because I am so bad at procrastinating.

[00:08:18.300] - César (Guest)

You can tell us on the comments if you feel disappointed when, if you ever go on a release date and the podcast is not available.

[00:08:28.850] - Oliver (Host)

Well, the deafening silence will tell us everything that we need to know. But the point is, the point is - I've forgotten what the point is.

[00:08:39.940] - César (Guest)

Disappointment?

[00:08:40.900] - Oliver (Host)

Well, the point is, the point is, I suppose, the point is that you because you are your own boss, you don't have someone above you at work to disappoint, to over promise something, to. I think that is something as we work in a place, you do get better at learning what you are realistically able to do. Because I think that, yeah, with every job that I've ever had - it's hard not to sound very negative and pessimistic about it, no? - I've lowered, as you said, I've lowered the expectations because I've gotten better at actually knowing what I can do. And it is really unprofessional and really junior, no, to say, I'm going to be able to do it by this day, and then not being able to actually do it.

[00:09:22.380] - César (Guest)

Also because the more you do it, the higher the standard you set for yourself as well. I was actually preparing an episode for my upcoming podcast for Spanish Language Coach. I'm talking about... It's called the Era of Emptiness or Hollowness, La era del vacío. And I'm also talking about a philosopher who's just won the Premio Princesa de Asturias in Spain. And he says that we went from a society where we had so many known norms and laws and extreme punishments that came from outside. And now we went from that to a pattern where we are the ones exploiting ourselves and putting so much pressure on ourselves. And we keep disappointing ourselves all the time.

[00:10:21.240] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, so an external punishment has become, like, intrinsic motivation, something coming from inside you. You are self-motivating, which means really you are self-punishing.

[00:10:31.670] - César (Guest)

Exactly. You need to be not only productive and efficient, but also happy, fit, you know, be trendy.

[00:10:41.240] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, but no one cares, though. No one externally cares whether you are happy and fit.

[00:10:48.020] - César (Guest)

But you do. You think it's important.

[00:10:49.560] - Oliver (Host)

But you do, yeah. But I'm talking more about when we fail to meet someone else's expectations. No? I remember the person that I remember the most failing to meet their expectations in the last... I don't know why this has stuck out, stuck out to me because it's such a ridiculous example. But when I was doing, I did, uh, when I was a teenager, I did Latin camp, as you know. I actually went back to Latin camp when I was becoming a teacher to do this teacher training course, basically, when I was becoming a secondary school teacher in the UK. As part of the events, there was a girl that was applying to Oxford, and she wanted help with the application. I was like, Oh, yeah, I can help you. That's fine. And then, she emailed me and she said, Can you help me? By that point, I had started the actual teacher training course, and I just didn't have the time. I basically was like, I'm really sorry, I actually don't have the time. She sent me this really negative email, basically being like, You shouldn't promise things if you can't deliver. She was actually completely right. But obviously, I was absolutely outraged by the tone of this email, but she was totally right.

[00:12:03.760] - Oliver (Host)

I shouldn't have promised that I could help her with practise interviews and stuff like that. But I did it, I suppose, because in the moment, and I think this is something we often do, we're like, Oh, that's such a great idea. I'd love to be able to help you. Why not? It's great that you are, that you're doing this. She was actually not British as well. She was foreign. She was a bit older than normal students are. And she, you know, there'll have been a language barrier thing as well, a cultural difference. But it really stuck in my mind because I really felt called out by this, this 21-year-old or 20-year-old. But she was totally right.

[00:12:38.070] - César (Guest)

Did you reply to that email?

[00:12:39.560] - Oliver (Host)

I can't remember that either. I just remember the sense of-

[00:12:41.980] - César (Guest)

I had completely forgotten. I guess you told me, but I had completely forgotten that that happened.

[00:12:45.960] - Oliver (Host)

I just remember, the only thing I remember about it is the sense of shame because I did feel she was correct. And it did feel - like it was something that obviously mattered to her because she was navigating a foreign university system, applying to a difficult university to get into, and really wanted to do well. And she obviously had been like, Oh, this is going to be such a good resource. This is someone who knows something about education, has gone through the process for the subject I'm applying for.

[00:13:12.660] - César (Guest)

Because you went to Oxford.

[00:13:15.360] - Oliver (Host)

It's going to be a really useful resource. And then I took that resource away with apparent indifference. And yeah, it's so ludicrous to have dedicated minutes of this podcast six years later.

[00:13:30.100] - César (Guest)

I think it's a really good example.

[00:13:31.740] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I think the reason it's a good example for me is because very rarely do people actually call you out directly for disappointing their expectations.

[00:13:38.620] - César (Guest)

I was thinking that how many disappointments you must have created without you knowing (yeah) you have. But when someone calls you out, it's like, Okay, this may have happened in the past with similar things, and everyone, not only you.

[00:13:53.500] - Oliver (Host)

No, of course, yeah.

[00:13:54.260] - César (Guest)

And also, I think it's interesting that I think probably that type of disappointment from someone that you don't know that well is sometimes even more significant than when you disappoint someone who loves you.

[00:14:10.380] - Oliver (Host)

Oh, I feel that - 

[00:14:11.690] - César (Guest)

You know what I mean, because they're used to that...

[00:14:12.300] - Oliver (Host)

- very strongly. Very strongly. And it's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about why do I care so much more about strangers' opinions than the opinions of someone I love and know well. And I've come to the conclusion that it's... And that follows that applies to this episode as why do I care so much about letting someone down that I bear I really know in comparison to someone I love and trust and know. I suppose it's because that person, the second person, who knows me, knows me. They know-

[00:14:38.320] - César (Guest)

And they accept you and love you as you are.

[00:14:40.060] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, they have the complete picture of me. They know that I will not let them down next time, even if I've let them down this time, that kind of thing. Whereas a stranger... Well, I suppose the reason that this actually stuck with me as well, this young Oxford applicant, was because it was confirmation  that people do feel very negatively, whereas you might tell yourself, Oh, you know, they'll understand, or it's not that big a deal, it's okay. This is confirmation that actually, no, sometimes people will feel really negatively, even if they don't say anything. Because you and I, of course, we talk to each other a lot, and we know that when we feel let down by other people, it matters to us.

[00:15:16.760] - César (Guest)

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess there is some anthropological perspective in this in the sense of you know that your tribe or your family, family, close friends -

[00:15:30.280] - Oliver (Host)

Your tribe, did you say?

[00:15:30.500] - César (Guest)

Your tribe. You know, are already with you and they're not going to leave you. But with external people... 

[00:15:37.200] - Oliver (Host)

Excommunicate you.

[00:15:38.080] - César (Guest)

Yeah. With external people, you want to feel included or know that you will have the chance in the future to belong to the group.

[00:15:46.620] - Oliver (Host)

Well, yeah. I did think this is always rational, is it?

[00:15:48.950] - César (Guest)

Exactly, no. But I'm thinking, talking about disappointing people you don't know. The internet. We create educational content on the internet, and some people are disappointed by our content, our views on things, our opinions.

[00:16:08.080] - Oliver (Host)

And they tell you.

[00:16:09.290] - César (Guest)

Some of them call you out in the same way that most people feel very positively about our work, and they appreciate it. Some people don't. Someone said to me recently, What a boring episode. He left that comment on YouTube.

[00:16:26.840] - Oliver (Host)

Was it?

[00:16:28.960] - César (Guest)

I don't think it was that boring. You were in it. It was the advanced podcast. I told you already.

[00:16:34.400] - Oliver (Host)

What was it about?

[00:16:36.580] - César (Guest)

You felt very negative. We were talking about being moody and all that.

[00:16:42.580] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose the thing is you can't please everyone, can you? You are always going to disappoint someone. It's inevitable.

[00:16:47.390] - César (Guest)

Yeah, absolutely. But now you've been doing this job for over a year now. Do you feel better now at receiving negative feedback?

[00:17:00.000] - Oliver (Host)

I can't honestly say that I do. I'd love to give you the whole narrative of growth and everything, but I don't.

[00:17:05.370] - César (Guest)

Is it getting worse now that you have more comments? Because you have more positive comments, but more negative comments.

[00:17:10.280] - Oliver (Host)

The thing is, I don't get that many negative comments still, neither in the Spanish podcast nor in the English ones. And so when I do get them, like my comment from my father, it really does sting. It does, but it's so stupid. It's so stupid. I know it shouldn't, but I can't help the way I feel, even when I think it's rational. César I'm sorry to cut you off, but we only have a very limited amount of time left. We have 50 seconds. So say goodbye.

[00:17:36.840] - César (Guest)

Goodbye. Thank you. I hope we don't, we didn't disappoint you.

[00:17:41.960] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, exactly. As César said earlier, please follow. There's something else I wanted to say about that, but I can't remember what it is. Just follow, please. It's good. It's useful.

[00:17:52.700] - César (Guest)

And recommend it to your teacher or colleagues, friends. We have 20 seconds left.

[00:18:02.310] - Oliver (Host)

Goodbye. Goodbye.

[00:18:06.520] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah. Okay.