Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:
[00:00:00.430] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I am your host, and my guest today is César. The transcript for this podcast is available online at www.morethanalanguage.com. So if there are any words that you find difficult, have a look online. Welcome back, César!
[00:00:21.240] - César (Guest)
Thank you very much for having me!
[00:00:23.430] - Oliver (Host)
Today, we're recording an episode that is definitely going to make me feel a bit nervous. And we're going to be talking about one of my least favourite, one of the most negative, emotions. Here we go!
[00:00:37.770] - Oliver (Host)
Shame is a funny thing. I spent much more time than you would expect worrying about being shamed, publicly shamed, in fact. Now, I'm obviously not a public figure. This is only a podcast about language learning. It's brand new, and I don't even use my real face or name in the publicity for this podcast. Instead, I use my partner's, firstly because he's an integral part of the podcast, appearing in the majority of episodes. Secondly, because he's already got his photo all over the internet because of his own podcast series. Now, as an aside, this is a real loss because I am just incredibly beautiful. Stunning. I can only imagine the publicity benefits if I used my own face. Since you can't see me, you'll have to take my word for it. That is, you'll have to just believe me. But I have resolved not to use my face in any case. No, in reality, of course, I am quite ordinary-looking.
[00:01:34.030] - Oliver (Host)
I've spoken in the past about not wanting my students to find me, but that's only part of the reason I don't use my face or name. Another reason is fear, really. Fear that I might say something that could be misinterpreted and it could follow me around forever. Nowadays, in the age of the internet, being remembered forever for a comment taken out of context is actually worryingly plausible, worryingly realistic. In fact, ordinary people nowadays find themselves going viral, seen by millions of people all over the world and their lives potentially ruined as a result. I'm not really sure where this overwhelming, anxious fear of being publicly shamed comes from. As far as I'm aware, I don't have any truly outrageous points of view. I've never really had anyone attack me in real life for my opinions or tell me I'm a terrible person. I've never had any problems at work or with friends because of things I've said or done. Maybe part of my concern comes from seeing colleagues at school get into trouble for misunderstandings about what they meant to say. The classroom, as you can imagine, can be quite a controversial place. Additionally, I read some of the emails that my partner, César, receives for his work on the Spanish Language Coach podcast, and I'm frankly quite shocked by what people will say to a complete stranger.
[00:02:59.380] - Oliver (Host)
Even though César's opinions are the definition of centrist and moderate, he does get some quite angry, irate people sending him messages, criticising him for his opinions or demanding that he address a certain topic in a certain way at a certain time. Sometimes, he'll get messages criticising him about the same topic from both political extremes, left and right. I suppose these things in combination have made me quite wary with regard to what I express online. If I were famous, even just a little bit, I am confident that I would find it truly exhausting. Celebrities in the 21st century must now worry about every possible interpretation of what they say, because it is certain that there will be someone out there trying to score points, trying to look good by exposing the supposed prejudice or offence behind their words. Some people would say that these celebrities are not being persecuted or punished for their ideas and opinions. Instead, they're just being "held to account" for bad behaviour. But I, personally, am not convinced by this idea. First, it assumes that we are perfect robots who never express themselves clumsily with the wrong words. Who hasn't, at some point of exhaustion, said something that they didn't really mean to a friend?
[00:04:24.460] - Oliver (Host)
That doesn't even need to be something offensive. It is something where after speaking, you think, "Really? Is that really how I feel?" Do we need to hold someone to account every time they express themselves inelegantly? Should we not do at least the smallest amount of due diligence to work out what they really think before dogpiling on them with our moral judgement. We also live in a world now where it's not enough not to think the so-called wrong thing. Instead, we are judged if we don't actively, openly, and loudly express the "right" opinion. I find that quite a worrying point of view. The idea behind this, I think, is that you shouldn't be allowed to plead ignorance about a given topic. That is, you shouldn't be able to say, "Well, I don't feel well-informed enough about topic X or topic Y to express an opinion." The response from some people is that all resources are now available online for you to educate yourself, and that there is a moral expectation that you should do so. However, I feel quite strongly, for example, that it's impossible and unreasonable to expect every person to have exactly the "right" opinion about every topic, and I put right in so-called inverted commas, acknowledging that I don't necessarily share the same view. No one could possibly have the time to research every controversial topic in good enough detail to be genuinely well-informed on it. For example, my mother is in her 70s. I respect her opinion on a huge number of issues. I frequently disagree with her, but her opinion is almost always, from my point of view at least, thoughtful and well-considered, even where I vehemently, strongly disagree with her conclusions. When I came out as gay to her, I had absolutely no doubt that she would love me. I was certain of it. And her reaction didn't make me doubt that at all, even for a second. But the first couple of things that she said to me would probably offend someone looking to be offended on my behalf. But it's just not realistic that a woman who hadn't really had much to do with the LGBT community in the 21st century should suddenly know exactly what is and isn't the right thing to say to avoid what we might call microaggressions, statements that may be indirectly, subtly, or unintentionally offensive or discriminatory.
[00:06:57.990] - Oliver (Host)
She would probably now react in a slightly different way, but to have expected her to do so 18 years ago actually devalues the growth of our relationship and the evolution of both of our points of view since then. And I would much rather that someone be honest to me about their point of view on any topic rather than telling me what they think I want to hear. As I said before, I don't think that I have any opinions that are particularly offensive in most people's eyes, but I don't think that society needs to be protected against offensive points of view. I don't think I have a right or an entitlement not to be offended, and I would much rather be offended occasionally than the alternative: having someone else decide what I can think and what I can say. This calls to mind the now somewhat cliched expression, written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall and frequently misattributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
[00:07:59.860] - Oliver (Host)
César, you're back again. Another episode. You have a lot... Well, firstly, what do you think?
[00:08:07.310] - César (Guest)
What do I think?
[00:08:11.070] - Oliver (Host)
I hate it.
[00:08:13.420] - César (Guest)
Well, it was a really nice introduction of the topic.
[00:08:18.700] - Oliver (Host)
What do you interpret the topic to be? I'm going to make this the title.
[00:08:24.580] - César (Guest)
Yeah, well, as I said when I first read the transcript or the draft from this episode, I thought that you were going to talk about shame, and you were going to talk about things like the walk of shame, for example, the body count, things like that.
[00:08:41.090] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, a great idea for another episode.
[00:08:43.230] - César (Guest)
Yeah, maybe. But in the end, it's more about political correctness and being fearful about expressing your views on something.
[00:08:55.480] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I mean, I suppose the thing is shame is a big topic, isn't it? Ultimately, what it comes down to is your value in the eyes of other people. When you talk about the walk of shame or body count, which for the listener is basically how many people you've slept with, people worry about those things because of what it might imply for other people's opinions of them.
[00:09:16.690] - César (Guest)
Yeah, their vision of them, of them knowing.
[00:09:19.930] - Oliver (Host)
It's the same thing for me with political opinions, for example, or opinions about contemporary topics, because I worry that we live in a world now which so black and white that someone can be, in your view, a great person in so many ways. But if they have one opinion that you think is just awful, they are an awful person now. They cease to be a good person in all those other ways, they cease to be a kind and generous and funny and loving person, and instead their whole essence is consumed by that negative perception.
[00:09:56.330] - César (Guest)
We have very different views on different topics.
[00:09:59.840] - Oliver (Host)
You and I, yeah.
[00:10:00.760] - César (Guest)
And we're a couple. I think it comes down to our different experiences, backgrounds. But I've never seen you as someone evil because you think differently. Also, I think it's really good as you get older, or as you get old.
[00:10:20.500] - Oliver (Host)
Older.
[00:10:21.070] - César (Guest)
As you get older, or when you're old enough to have a very strong opinion on something and then change your view on that topic, then you realise when you start analysing more, now when I feel very strongly about something, I feel like, well, I feel very strongly about this, but I might change my mind in the future. So maybe I should look into the other side. Why are this group of people saying something completely different to what I strongly believe?So I really like - and actually, I listen to a lot of podcasts. My podcasts actually are quite extremist sometimes.
[00:11:00.690] - Oliver (Host)
The podcasts you listen to?
[00:11:02.730] - César (Guest)
Yeah, like the views of my podcast, I don't tend to listen to things that are very centrist because if I have a view in something, I try to find the complete opposite to understand why they think completely different to what I think.
[00:11:14.540] - Oliver (Host)
But do you listen to left wing, sorry, right wing podcasts?
[00:11:17.690] - César (Guest)
I do.
[00:11:18.590] - Oliver (Host)
Which ones?
[00:11:20.670] - César (Guest)
Unherd, for example. And last year-
[00:11:25.540] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, it's interesting. Sorry to interrupt you, but certainly some people on the left, I think, will here, he listens to Unheard. That in itself would be enough to think, I don't like that about him. And then they might say, "Oh, are you supporting something that's so extreme right?" I don't actually know enough about Unherd to know how right wing it is, but I understand that it's relatively-
[00:11:45.720] - César (Guest)
To be honest, I started listening to that podcast because I met the host at a party, and he was very nice, and he told me, I've got a podcast. But for example, last year, two of my most listened podcast were the JK Rowling podcast, and I found it very interesting. And the second one was a podcast about queerness and trans issues.
[00:12:09.780] - Oliver (Host)
From the other-
[00:12:10.180] - César (Guest)
So completely different views. Like completely different views. And I built-
[00:12:15.240] - Oliver (Host)
The same topics?
[00:12:15.340] - César (Guest)
Yeah, same topic, different-
[00:12:16.970] - Oliver (Host)
Perspective.
[00:12:17.210] - César (Guest)
-perspectives. And that helped me to build my own vision of the topic.
[00:12:23.620] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I mean, and to me, it almost doesn't matter what your vision of that topic is. It's more that for me, it frustrates me that even listening to someone else's opinion on it will upset people. There will be people that hear that you have listened to her podcast or you've listened to that queer theory podcast, and they will be upset that you gave them the time of day, that you supported them by giving the streaming numbers or anything like that. I just find that point of view very hard for me to relate to.
[00:12:54.850] - César (Guest)
It's not healthy at all.
[00:12:56.700] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:12:57.410] - César (Guest)
But don't you think as well that with the internet and the algorithm and all that, some people 'perform' their extremes?
[00:13:06.880] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, for sure.
[00:13:08.060] - César (Guest)
You know what I mean? You know you're going to go viral if you say something very, very left wing or very, very right wing because you're going to get a lot of comments and that will push the algorithm to show your Reel, Short, TikTok, whatever, to more people. And then you will be internet famous for 24 hours. For sure. I think that's really dangerous.
[00:13:29.940] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I think even before the internet, there was a lot of hypocrisy in what people said to their friends and what they actually did and what they believed.
[00:13:40.210] - César (Guest)
But it stayed in their circle.
[00:13:43.120] - Oliver (Host)
What do you mean? Oh, yes. It wasn't public.
[00:13:45.720] - César (Guest)
Like nowadays, everyone can-
[00:13:47.930] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. It makes the narrative or it makes the discourse much stronger, much more extreme. I think that people are shouting out into the void that this is their position, which will not change. And then in their real lives, they are so much more moderate. I see that all the time with some of my friends, their online profile is so different politically from the reality.
[00:14:13.150] - César (Guest)
Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely.
[00:14:14.170] - Oliver (Host)
Most of my friends, obviously, not because of my own opinions, but because of being the age that I am, living where I do (in London) and being gay, most of my friends are very left wing. And online, they have so many, kind of, witty comments about not giving Conservatives the time of day and brutally putting them in their place. But in reality, they're actually quite open-minded about hearing other points of view.
[00:14:44.330] - César (Guest)
But I think the internet gives us the sensation of not having anyone behind that screen. You can say whatever you want, express your opinion without any filter.
[00:14:55.390] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I think - and this is something that I think the internet contributes to, but it's a very human thing - actually, there's that often very good TV series, Black Mirror, which I think does this incredibly well because there's an episode about shame, essentially, or about what I called in the speech, dogpiling on people, where people sense weakness or sense an opportunity to judge someone morally, and they know that other people will be incited to do the same. They'll be encouraged to do the same, to do the same judgement. The episode is called 'Hated in the Nation', and I think it's where the community identifies someone that they feel should feel shame, and then it grows way out of proportion to the original crime. It's difficult because sometimes what someone does, something that gets them cancelled or something that attracts the anger, the anger of everyone else and means that they should feel ashamed in our eyes, often the things that they do are negative things, are horrible things. And so rationally, it's quite hard to defend. And it's actually quite hard nowadays to say, "Yeah, that's a bad thing that they did. But it's not that bad!", because then it means that you yourself are going to get attacked for saying what you're saying, that that is not that bad. And it's very hard to get a sense of proportion.
[00:16:22.210] - César (Guest)
There are different levels of that.
[00:16:23.630] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. But it reminds me of kind of classics from the past, like The Scarlet Letter or The Crucible that we saw, where, yeah, there's just... As communities, we have such a tendency to jump on people and make ourselves feel virtuous by making them look bad.
[00:16:47.410] - César (Guest)
I think it's normal to, wanting to exclude someone who's dangerous, violent, someone who's done something really, really bad. But it is true that with cancel culture, sometimes you cancel someone on a comment that can be actually misunderstood, right?
[00:17:08.660] - Oliver (Host)
Or even just stupid.
[00:17:09.950] - César (Guest)
Or even just stupid, exactly.
[00:17:11.200] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, that's what I wanted to say. People misspeak, people say things where, you know if you say it in the wrong, I... Sorry, that was very inarticulate. But I'm sure you, like I, like everyone else, sometimes has moments where they lie in bed at night and think, "Oh my God, I can't believe I said that." And you feel ashamed of it, you feel like it was a stupid thing to say and maybe it was misinterpreted. And if you say that in the wrong circumstance, then that can become your entire character. So if you are a great person and you have one terrible day and you say something that was totally out of character, or you do something that's totally out of character, but just had a terrible day and someone happened to be there.
[00:17:53.700] - César (Guest)
And upload it on Twitter, X.
[00:17:54.710] - Oliver (Host)
And upload it on X or Twitter - that, for every future job application, every future potential relationship, every time they Google you, that is the entirety of your character, because we don't have any sense of nuance when we have very little information about a person. That's it. That's what your entire character gets reduced down to. I just, for me, that makes me feel so anxious that that could happen to me. Sorry to interrupt, but as I say, I really, really don't think that I think or say anything shocking enough to have that happen to me. But it worries me anyway.
[00:18:40.080] - César (Guest)
Yeah. And obviously, the more exposed you are, the higher the risks to be cancelled or exposed or the chances, the higher chances to put your foot in it and make a mistake.
[00:18:55.520] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. And I think one of the results of this is that I just don't know why anyone in their right mind would go into politics or try to become famous and entertain people or anything, because it just seems, it seems to me, especially politics has become a completely what we can say in English, it's a "thankless profession". All you get is hatred and resentment and anger.
[00:19:18.790] - César (Guest)
It's a freak show. Like, I've always, always defended politicians because everyone is like, "Oh, politicians are all the same. It doesn't matter who you vote [for]." I've always thought that no matter the party, you always get good people, people who really want to be in power in order to make things better and improve people's life. But lately - I guess in the UK, you're more used to it, I don't know - but in Spain, now when I see the Parliament in Spain, how rude they are, how they're like, how do you say, "zasca", like slapping back all the time?
[00:19:57.780] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, they're always trying to get like, "zingers" or something, right? They're always trying to get a viral moment.
[00:20:02.730] - César (Guest)
Exactly. Yeah, but there is no discussion. There's just like, resentment and creating, creating, like increasing the polarisation of the society. And I'm like, "Are you supposed to be the role model for society?"
[00:20:18.630] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I mean and -
[00:20:19.020] - César (Guest)
A little bit, at least.
[00:20:22.030] - Oliver (Host)
I thought -
[00:20:22.200] - César (Guest)
So I'm really disappointed on, disappointed on [in] politicians.
[00:20:26.020] - Oliver (Host)
I've watched quite a lot of things from the Spanish Parliament, and I actually think in many ways, it's worse than here because here, I think even if they're rude to each other and they're quite... I think they're rarely rude to each other. A lot of the time-
[00:20:37.510] - César (Guest)
They're very violent, no, verbally.
[00:20:40.160] - Oliver (Host)
I think they are aggressive, but they use language that is quite formal, quite formulaic, and quite rigid and fixed. And so when someone steps outside of that language, they get told off by the Speaker of the House.
[00:20:55.690] - César (Guest)
Okay.
[00:20:56.330] - Oliver (Host)
And so I think it actually keeps it relatively polite, whereas I've seen more attempts to go viral in Spain than here. Yeah, so obviously we've strayed quite quickly into politics from this. But just to get quite meta: with the podcast, with this podcast, it makes me nervous to express any sort of opinion.
[00:21:23.020] - César (Guest)
But you've expressed quite a few opinions already. And I'm sure you will eventually receive some, some comments. And actually, I think it's fine if someone says to you, I disagree with you, or even, I will stop listening to your podcast because I don't like what you say, because I don't want to support someone who thinks this. I think it's fair enough. In the same way, I don't go to a restaurant where I feel that the manager is being rude to their employees.
[00:21:51.360] - Oliver (Host)
Of course, yeah. But I think that like loads of people, I obviously, well, like most people, I think, I have a desire to be liked. I want people to like me, or at least I don't want to be hated. And my mum would say to me, "Well, that's just being weak, weak-willed because it's important to stick to your principles." And it's not like my principles, as I say, is - I'm not saying anything really offensive here in the slightest, I don't think. But I wish I had a little bit more strength of character to say, "Well, that's what you think, and I'll be fine thinking what I think." But I think that one thing I definitely do too much in my life is when someone says something negative to me, and it can be people I've just met sometimes in clubs, for example. They might say something to me, and I think I spend too much time trying to get them on side. Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:22:52.410] - César (Guest)
Trying to convince them that you are normal and you're a nice person.
[00:22:57.520] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. If someone has misinterpreted or didn't hear something. I remember once, for example, I was in a club, and you and I were already going out, and someone was staring at me from across the other side of the discotheque, the club, and he came over to flirt with me and he was very handsome. He said to me, "Oh, you're very handsome." I said, "Oh, I think you're very handsome, too."
[00:23:23.500] - César (Guest)
We were going out already.
[00:23:25.440] - Oliver (Host)
Wait. I said immediately after that, "I've got a boyfriend." He kind of put his hand in my face and was like, "Ugh, people like you disgust me!" Because I had returned his compliment. And at some point, I had caught his eye over the club. It was more or less the first thing out of my mouth that I had a boyfriend. And he was like, "I can't believe you would even look at me when you have a boyfriend."
[00:23:50.040] - César (Guest)
But he must have been joking.
[00:23:52.280] - Oliver (Host)
No, he wasn't. He then turned on his heel and walked away. And the desire-
[00:23:56.100] - César (Guest)
He did what?
[00:23:57.110] - César (Guest)
He turned on his heel and walked away. And the desire that I had to go and get him back and say, "No, no, you've misunderstood. I'm a good person!"
[00:24:06.380] - César (Guest)
"I wanted to be polite and faithful at the same time!"
[00:24:10.380] - Oliver (Host)
And obviously, what does it matter what some random person that had spoken to me for five seconds thought of me? So he goes over and says to his friends, "Look at that, that cheating slut over there." But honestly, you know, who cares? I mean, I was much younger. I would not worry about that now. But I would be lying if I said that instinct to try to prevent people from thinking and saying horrible things about me didn't still exist. Do you understand? Can you relate?
[00:24:48.440] - César (Guest)
I don't think, like, I do care about what other people think of me, but probably because I've been doing the podcast for almost five years, my thin is getting thicker.
[00:24:59.670] - Oliver (Host)
Your skin.
[00:25:00.740] - César (Guest)
My skin, what did I say?
[00:25:01.680] - Oliver (Host)
I think you said my thin.
[00:25:02.770] - César (Guest)
We had some wine before recording. My skin is getting thicker. I can show you, especially the podcast thing is quite safe, but once you upload a podcast on YouTube where people can leave comments -
[00:25:17.250] - Oliver (Host)
People are brutal.
[00:25:17.960] - César (Guest)
People are quite nasty sometimes. Sometimes I engage, but most of the time I don't reply to offensive comments when they say things like, "You are an idiot" because what's the point? You will get used to it.
[00:25:30.120] - Oliver (Host)
Well, as always, César, thank you very much for listening. Listener, if you've made it this far-
[00:25:35.760] - César (Guest)
You said thank you very much for listening.
[00:25:37.300] - Oliver (Host)
Oh, yeah, sorry. As always, César, thank you very much for joining me.
[00:25:41.870] - César (Guest)
Thank you for having me.
[00:25:43.640] - Oliver (Host)
To share your opinion. Listener, thank you for listening. I hope that you've made it this far and have enjoyed the episode. Send me some hate mail at oliver@morethanalanguage.com to help me grow as a person... If you would like to have... Well, if you'd like to tell me in person how much you disagree with me, then you can also sign up for conversation classes with me. That's available at www.morethanalanguage.com/oliver. In the meantime, I hope that you've enjoyed this episode, and I look forward to welcoming you back for the next one. Thank you. Bye-bye.
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