Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:
[00:00:00.280] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I'm here with César again. There is a transcript of this podcast available online at www.morethanalanguage.com. It's a hot day here in London, and so it's a good time for discussion about what it is to have to bear things, to endure things, to suffer things. And so that ties in very well to what we're going to be discussing today. However, before we get into that discussion, I wanted to take the time to announce a new development in English and Beyond, which is that I'm offering conversation classes in both English and in Spanish, so if you're wanting to practise your Spanish or English conversation skills, have a look at www.morethanalanguage.com/oliver, where you can find details of the classes and what they would contain. You can find a link to those classes in the description of this episode. As a teacher of Latin and Ancient History, I spend a lot of time trying to convince students of the relevance of the ancient world. Unsurprisingly, many teenagers nowadays don't initially believe that they do have much to learn from ancient Greek and Roman authors.
[00:01:20.530] - Oliver (Host)
I do, however, genuinely believe that the Ancients have a lot to teach us. For example, I am often struck when reading political speeches from two and half millennia ago by how incredibly little we would have to change for the speech to be relevant today. I find it humbling that despite common assumptions, we have progressed much less than we think in 2,500 years. One area of life where the Greeks and Romans were famously particularly advanced is philosophy. Now, at my university, philosophy was a compulsory part of my Classics degree, but I actually chose a modern philosophy option, Formal Logic, which is the study of correct reasoning. Although I enjoyed the subject, in hindsight, I missed an opportunity because I've learned with age how fascinating I find some ancient philosophy. Today, I want to talk a little bit about one philosophy in particular because it aligns so closely with something that is covered in the general education of students nowadays. I think it's impossible to walk into an English secondary school now and not find something about the importance of resilience on the school's curriculum. Resilience can be defined as the capacity to withstand or to recover quickly from difficulties; toughness. This is a characteristic that all teachers try to encourage in their students. An Ancient Greek or Roman might have listened to our modern lessons and lectures about resilience and thought, "Huh, that just sounds a lot like Stoicism." This philosophy, Stoicism, was founded by Zeno of Citium, a man from the ancient city of Citium on the island of Cyprus. He was an intelligent and hardworking man who became a wealthy merchant, but one day he lost everything, bankrupted in a terrible shipwreck and stranded in Athens. In the face of this huge adversity, he found solace, that is, peace, and strength in the teachings of the famous Greek philosopher Socrates, and he used these life experiences and the lessons of Socrates to develop his own philosophy. He created Stoicism, a framework which could help anyone navigate the uncertainties of life with resilience and fortitude. Through the Stoic principles of acceptance, virtue, and inner tranquilly, Zeno encouraged others to transcend, to move past, their personal tragedies, and transform these negatives into an opportunity for personal growth and self-discovery. Perhaps more surprising for many people is the idea that we should approach personal successes and moments of ecstasy in a similar way.
[00:04:09.660] - Oliver (Host)
Either extreme, positive or negative, can be viewed as 'bad' in terms of throwing us off our emotional balance. That's part of what makes Stoicism special. Another important part of its unusualness is its universality. Other philosophies are sometimes criticised as being out of the reach of ordinary people, and you may level this accusation at Stoicism as well. After all, you may believe that it's perhaps relatively easy to be Stoic, to be resilient, about life's ups and downs if you live in a comfortable house in a safe country with plentiful food. However, one of the things that's really interesting about Stoicism is that some of its most important thinkers are from walks of life that couldn't be more different. Maybe the famous Stoic was Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor, who meticulously documented his thoughts and personal philosophies in a book which is now called 'Meditations'. Now, you couldn't really find many people in the ancient world who would be richer and more powerful than the Emperor of Rome, so it's quite interesting that he found so much of Zeno's Stoicism relevant to the challenges of his life. In contrast to the privilege of Marcus Aurelius, another very famous ancient Stoic was a man called Epictetus, a man born into slavery in Phrygia.
[00:05:35.550] - Oliver (Host)
He wrote the literal handbook of this philosophy, and so it's a testament to Stoicism's universality that two of its most famous followers were from the complete opposite ends of the spectrum of life. The idea that connects them, perhaps, is that we are all subject to the unpredictability of life, whether we are an Emperor or a slave. I cannot claim to be an expert in this philosophy, far from it, but it has always appealed to me because of its idea that it is important to accept that there are many things in life that I cannot control. I can only control, in fact, my reaction to those things. I have had an incredibly fortunate life. I can't claim to be an Emperor, but I have been blessed with a supportive family, a comfortable upbringing, and a wealth of opportunities. Despite this, I have, of course, had some difficult moments in my life, some self-inflicted, some seemingly unhappy accidents of fate. That said, there are certainly some elements of Stoicism that stand out as being hard for ordinary people to accept. According to Epictetus, we should aim not to be upset by even life's worst moments, for example, the death of a child.
[00:06:50.340] - Oliver (Host)
A modern translation of his work puts it like this: "In the case of everything attractive or useful or that you are fond of, remember to say what thing it is, beginning with the least little things. If you are fond of a jug, say, "I am fond of a jug!" For then, when it is broken, you will not be upset. If you kiss your child or your wife, say that you are kissing a human being, for when it dies, you will not be upset." Thus, we can see that Stoicism arguably emphasises the hard suppression of emotions to achieve balance, peace, and rationality. Some people may point out that this can lead to emotional detachment and an unhealthy avoidance of feelings. I do agree with this criticism. Emotions, including sometimes sadness, both rational and irrational, seem to me to be a vital part of the human experience. I would feel that I had missed out on these vital parts of being alive if I'd never experienced the emotional highs and lows. And if I were to lose a close family member, I can't say that I would try very hard to be Stoic about it. It would be incredibly important for me to grieve, and to grieve hard, although privately.
[00:08:06.240] - Oliver (Host)
I feel like it would do them a dishonour if I just tried to shrug it off, almost. It's very possible that I have misunderstood the core teachings of Stoicism, but that's actually linked to one of the other criticisms of the philosophy. As I mentioned earlier, its elitism. It's sometimes viewed as difficult for ordinary people to understand fully or to incorporate into their daily lives. The reason it may be hard to understand is not its inherent complexity, but instead, because most people don't have the opportunity and the resources to familiarise themselves fully with the philosophy and to train themselves in its teachings. We don't all have one-on-one tutoring with world experts, as ancient Roman emperies would have done after all. That said, education is now so democratised that there are a wealth of resources available for you to teach yourself if you are so inclined. At the same time, it's hard to find the time in modern life to think full stop, let alone ponder questions of the universe in between work, cooking meals, picking up the kids from school, etc. Regardless, I find that I, like most people, am a person who is sometimes impacted emotionally more than I would like by relatively insignificant events, and Stoicism, when I find a spare five minutes to read about it, has been helping me to accept that much of my emotional reaction to both positive and negative events is in fact unnecessary.
[00:09:38.110] - Oliver (Host)
I don't want to get rid of my emotions entirely by any means, but sometimes it's useful to be able to take a step back and consider whether these things that get me excited and agitated really matter in the scheme of things. So, turning to my guest and putting him on the spot, César, how do you cope with difficult times in your life?
[00:10:02.320] - César (Guest)
Well, first of all, Oliver, I really enjoyed your introduction to the topic. Yeah, it was really good. I learned a lot because I had heard about Stoicism, but I didn't know so much. So thank you very much.
[00:10:18.200] - Oliver (Host)
Well, as I said, I'm not an expert, and I chose to do, as I said as well, Formal Logic. So if there is an expert of Stoicism (listening) who maybe would like to do an episode in the future and correct me, please do let me know. But go and tell me.
[00:10:32.430] - César (Guest)
Secondly, I'm very happy to be back.
[00:10:35.450] - Oliver (Host)
After a little break.
[00:10:36.950] - César (Guest)
With Laura and Franziska.
[00:10:40.570] - Oliver (Host)
Well, we're happy to have you back, although obviously, I was very happy to have them both as well. But yeah, our regular guest returns. How do I cope with difficulties in life?
[00:10:51.050] - César (Guest)
Well, first of all, I don't really agree with the idea of Stoicism now that I know more about it, because one thing that I do in my life is distinguish between pain and suffering. I think suffering may be optional. Pain is at times inevitable. And what Stoicism is preaching is basically that you're not allowed to feel pain.
[00:11:21.860] - Oliver (Host)
I don't think that it's not-
[00:11:24.420] - César (Guest)
That you have to shrug it off, as you said.
[00:11:26.540] - Oliver (Host)
It's not that you shrug it off. I mean, I probably spoke in a casual way, but I think it's more that you acknowledge that it's there, but you say, "Well, I'm not going to allow that to disrupt my inner tranquility." I'm going to remain calm, regardless.
[00:11:46.090] - César (Guest)
But is that human? Can a human person do that? Like feel completely composed at all times, regardless of their circumstances? I think it's not realistic at all. I think you can cope in a way. If something bad happens to you, you have to learn to accept it. But before that acceptance comes, you might be, you know, getting through a process of pain and acceptance and grieving.
[00:12:20.100] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I think the Stoics would acknowledge that that occurs, obviously. I think that you've raised two interesting points there. Firstly, just because something is very hard to achieve, or even unrealistic to achieve perfection in that characteristic, does that mean that you don't try? Because, for example, you have many habits, that you're- positive habits, you know, learning French, going to the gym, eating well, but you don't eat well every day. You don't study French every day. But that doesn't mean that because you can't achieve perfection, you give up. So the idea that you might struggle to achieve that emotional balance doesn't mean that you just say, "Oh, well, screw it!"
[00:12:59.380] - César (Guest)
So they They set the standard very high, they set the bar very high so that you can achieve whatever you're possible [capable] of.
[00:13:06.580] - Oliver (Host)
I think that, yeah, you work towards feeling very Zen, feeling very Stoic, feeling like, yes, that bad thing has happened, and yes, I have that instinctive agitation, agitated reaction, but I try to return down to, kind of, my base level of balance and tranquility without reacting too much. And so maybe at the beginning of the process of trying to become more Stoic, that would be really hard for you. Or there may be significant events in your life where that might be really hard. But that doesn't mean that you don't keep trying, I think.
[00:13:49.190] - César (Guest)
Okay, that's good then because I agree it's important not to be too reactive and try to breathe and have the control of the situation.
[00:13:59.800] - Oliver (Host)
I think it's one of the...Well, go on.
[00:14:03.050] - César (Guest)
Yeah, another thing I didn't like about this theory is the-
[00:14:06.970] - Oliver (Host)
Again, I feel a great need to say my presentation of this theory.
[00:14:11.330] - César (Guest)
Yeah, your presentation. But you have studied Classics, so you probably know more than the average person.
[00:14:16.690] - Oliver (Host)
Well, maybe more than the average person, but as you said-
[00:14:18.870] - César (Guest)
And you have done some research about this.
[00:14:21.670] - Oliver (Host)
Well, it was more recalling something that I'd read before, but there is actually what you said about a little bit, I know more than the average person, there's that very interesting effect where you-
[00:14:35.440] - César (Guest)
The expert fallacy?
[00:14:37.290] - Oliver (Host)
Well, it's called the Dunning-Kruger effect, where I think a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, effectively, where basically, you overestimate your abilities in part of life, where you actually have very little knowledge. I think that that effect can be exaggerated when you have read an article and think you're an expert. So I'm hoping that that's not going on here.
[00:15:05.510] - César (Guest)
In any case, the purpose of this podcast is to improve your comprehension of English. So that's fine.
[00:15:12.850] - Oliver (Host)
So even if everything, even if everything I say is wrong, hopefully, at least you've understood it.
[00:15:18.210] - César (Guest)
You have to take everything we say in this podcast with a pinch of salt.
[00:15:21.970] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly.
[00:15:22.480] - César (Guest)
Is that correct?
[00:15:23.250] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly. In this case, maybe a handful rather than a pinch, but yes.
[00:15:27.650] - César (Guest)
Okay. And my...I also find really weird the way they present this idea of not having attachment with anyone or commitment, like they were really scared of commitment because you can only fear losing someone or something when you feel attached to that thing, person, experience, whatever. I think it's important to risk that. Otherwise, we wouldn't be bonding with people. We wouldn't be having relationships, creating friendships.
[00:16:02.700] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I mean, to my understanding of it, it would have that effect of reducing my attachment and commitment to someone because if, if I've got a voice in my head saying, "Oh, you always need to prepare yourself to be calm for when you lose this person," that might have an impact on how much of my emotional self I'm willing to give.
[00:16:29.230] - César (Guest)
Commitment issues, basically.
[00:16:30.880] - Oliver (Host)
But then again, I suppose lots of people, when they get into a relationship with someone, they look ahead to the end of the relationship. I know that when I was younger, I always used to be really preoccupied about how a relationship would end, but that didn't stop me feeling very attached to that person.
[00:16:48.230] - César (Guest)
Also, apparently, this is one of the things that... I don't know the name of this effect you mentioned a few minutes earlier.
[00:16:55.690] - Oliver (Host)
The Dunning-Kruger effect.
[00:16:56.670] - César (Guest)
Yeah. I read recently that imagin(ing) negative stuff that might happen in the future actually doesn't happen, doesn't help to cope with it if that happens in your life. So it's interesting because it's not really useful to fear something that much.
[00:17:12.890] - Oliver (Host)
Well, that's a little bit like one of our favourite songs, our shared songs, which is that song 'Sunscreen', where it talks about worrying about things in your life, but realise that worrying is as useful as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum or something like that. But largely, would you say, does that chime-
[00:17:33.740] - César (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:35.010] - Oliver (Host)
That largely doesn't matter. But I actually think that song is quite interesting. It's a really good song, listener, agai- especially for practising your English, actually. For me, it actually creates in me a Stoic feeling as well.
[00:17:47.200] - César (Guest)
Yeah, living in the present, accept!
[00:17:50.560] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. But I think it is about living in the present, but at the same time, it's taking on the calmness of someone else talking with more experience. So although it's talking about you enjoying your life in the present, it's enjoyable in the present because someone with more experience and more life who's closer to death, is saying, none of this really matters. And that idea of nothing really matters in a nice way, I think is actually kind of Stoic.
[00:18:22.480] - César (Guest)
Well, absolutely. I once did - I had really bad anxiety a few years ago, like 10 years ago - and I did, I'm not going to say the name of the organisation. It wasn't a cult or anything, but it was kind of weird. It worked for me. But the main, my bottom line after finishing this group therapy (it was a whole week with a bunch of strangers in London), the bottom line, the conclusion for me was life is meaningless. But that really helped. That really helped.
[00:18:56.120] - Oliver (Host)
That helps me, too. I think life is largely meaningless.
[00:18:59.490] - César (Guest)
We are not, we're not that important.
[00:19:02.610] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I mean, because obviously different people derive meaning from different parts of their life. And I think that this question of what is the meaning of life, what is the point of it, is something that obviously, people have struggled with for as long as people have existed. Before, maybe when we were struggling to eat, people didn't have the, kind of, freedom, the time to think about these things so deeply. Although actually, obviously, the Ancient Greeks dealt with famine and food scarcity a lot, and they thought very deeply about what is the point in life.
[00:19:35.380] - César (Guest)
So that proves that the Maslow Pyramid was pointless.
[00:19:39.520] - Oliver (Host)
The pyramid of needs?
[00:19:40.580] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:19:41.230] - Oliver (Host)
I don't know very much about it.
[00:19:43.290] - César (Guest)
Well, it's meant to, you are meant to go up as you cover the previous needs, so if you're saying that-
[00:19:51.110] - Oliver (Host)
Well, and to achieve a higher state of happiness or what's the-
[00:19:54.860] - César (Guest)
Not really. Not necessarily.
[00:19:57.230] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. So, you're saying that worrying about your happiness in an existential way would be only if you were ascended to the top of the pyramid?
[00:20:07.190] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:20:07.770] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. Yeah. I mean, so no, the Greeks definitely thought about all of these things deeply.
[00:20:14.370] - César (Guest)
But do you think life is meaningless? Because I said that in this course, whatever, that was my bottom line, my conclusion, and it helped back in the day because I had a lot of anxiety. I was connected to the future all the time. I was worrying about every single thing. I was really jumpy with every single sound. I was on an alarm mode all the time. But now I don't think life is meaningless. I think, I think actually the point of life is trying to find a meaning, and there are as many different meanings as people are on the planet.
[00:20:48.840] - Oliver (Host)
Well, in the end, it's the journey that matters.
[00:20:55.210] - César (Guest)
Yeah, in the end, it's the journey, what matters anyway.
[00:20:58.940] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I mean, no, I do think life is largely meaningless, and I sometimes I feel negatively about that because sometimes I think that that's the thing that very depressed people think, because it's all very well and good saying, "Life is meaningless, therefore, you shouldn't worry about the negative things." But sometimes that bleeds into, "Life is meaningless, therefore, the positive things give me no pleasure." I think that I do largely think life is meaningless, but I try to take pleasure from the things that make me happy and just have that be enough. But yeah, it's something that lots of people feel, right? When you look up into the sky and you see all the stars and you feel the enormity of the universe and you just think, wow.
[00:21:43.720] - César (Guest)
I am not that important.
[00:21:44.920] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I am so small. And I find that personally comforting. But I think I do sometimes find it a bit depressing as well.
[00:21:52.550] - César (Guest)
But at the same time, I can understand that feeling of meaningless.
[00:21:58.960] - Oliver (Host)
Meaninglessness?
[00:22:00.160] - César (Guest)
Meaninglessness. But at the end of the day, we are programmed with a survivor mode. We want to survive, we want to thrive, we want to keep ourselves alive. We want to reduce risk and pain and achieve as much pleasure and happiness and food as possible, I guess. It's biological.
[00:22:27.560] - Oliver (Host)
That was my first question, César.
[00:22:30.040] - César (Guest)
That was your first question?
[00:22:30.440] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, the...only first.
[00:22:31.200] - César (Guest)
Okay.
[00:22:31.860] - Oliver (Host)
We've managed to speak for 13 minutes.
[00:22:34.140] - César (Guest)
I asked you something as well.
[00:22:35.210] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. My next question. I think most people would like to airbrush out some of the hardest bits of their lives. You've had very difficult times in your life, would you like to have lived those differently? Or would you leave them the same now?
[00:22:57.420] - César (Guest)
I wish I hadn't, I hadn't had to live those moments, obviously. Was the grammar correct?
[00:23:06.720] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. I wish I hadn't had to live those moments.
[00:23:10.170] - César (Guest)
That's what I said, right?
[00:23:11.270] - Oliver (Host)
I think so. Yeah.
[00:23:12.120] - César (Guest)
Okay. But I think the way I lived them was the way I knew at the time. I did my best and I learned. I tried to learn. I tried to get some knowledge from it. So I don't think I would change anything. Yeah.
[00:23:30.020] - Oliver (Host)
Interesting. While I was listening to you, I was thinking about whether I would describe you during some of those moments as Stoic. And it occurred to me that Stoic has changed its meaning now in English because "stoic" for most-
[00:23:47.940] - César (Guest)
It's like resilient? Would you say it's like a synonym?
[00:23:51.800] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I think that it's a person... Now, "stoic", I think, is someone who, in negative circumstances just doesn't demonstrate their feelings or they don't complain about difficult stuff. Whereas as I mentioned in the speech, I think it's more about acknowledging your feelings and then trying to return to tranquility. It's more of a mental engagement with them and also with positive stuff as well, whereas I think nowadays we use it uniquely negatively, you know, so, in the sense that you're only "stoic" if you, instead of getting really upset by something negative or something painful, you don't show that suffering. That makes you "stoic". Whereas if something really amazing happens and you don't allow that ecstasy to infect your tranquility instead, you're just a miserable bastard, basically, instead of "stoic".
[00:24:48.580] - César (Guest)
With that, I agree with Stoicism. I think it's important as well. When you have a really big win in life or you're being successful or you're really happy for something, you need to turn it down a bit as well.
[00:25:03.680] - Oliver (Host)
To tone it down.
[00:25:05.210] - César (Guest)
Tone it down. Thank you. Because in fact, sometimes it happened to me that I felt anxious about something when I was really happy. And I was like, "Why am I anxious?" And it was because I was very happy about something or very excited.
[00:25:21.310] - Oliver (Host)
Although that doesn't sound very Stoic because you're allowing the anxiety to disrupt your tranquility.
[00:25:26.490] - César (Guest)
Okay.
[00:25:27.240] - Oliver (Host)
Whereas you should more just be like, "Well, something good has happened. Something bad could happen in the future. Good things don't last forever. Bad things don't last forever. This too shall pass. So I'm going to try to come down from the high." It's like I mentioned, translating from Epictetus, you shouldn't get too attached or you shouldn't feel too happy in someone's company or with your wife or husband.
[00:25:56.350] - César (Guest)
Basically, we can make a summary about Stoicism. You cannot get attached with people, thoughts, things. You cannot be happy nor sad.
[00:26:08.410] - Oliver (Host)
I think it's just that you shouldn't... If your attachment to something, if your positive attachment to something means that if it were to be taken away from you, you'd be devastated, then that is an unhealthy relationship that you have with that thing. I think that that is something that doesn't work with our societal view now of love and marriage and even material possessions.
[00:26:33.230] - César (Guest)
I agree.
[00:26:35.700] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. Well, I think that we've actually covered the final question that I had as well about the positive elements of the philosophy, what you do with positive experiences. So I think it comes time, the time to say goodbye has arrived. We hope that you've enjoyed this episode. Not so much that you're going to be emotionally devastated now that it's finished. Hopefully, you'll be Stoic about that loss. And even if you've learned nothing about philosophy, which is quite possible, hopefully, you've learned something about English. But before you go, one last thing. As I said at the beginning of this episode, I'm now offering classes in Spanish and English conversation. So have a look online on our website, www.morethanalanguage.com/oliver, if you'd like to learn more about those classes.
[00:27:29.080] - Oliver (Host)
And as always, you can send me any questions about this episode or about the classes or anything to do with English really that you like to my email at oliver@morethanalanguage.com. So thank you very much for listening. And goodbye.
[00:27:46.500] - César (Guest)
Thank you. Bye-bye.in for listening. Bye.
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