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[00:00:01.090] - Oliver (Host)
This is a confessional episode, so my anonymous monologue this week, as you can see, uses a technique appropriate for this sort of confession. As always, if you don't understand everything and would like a transcript, you can find it online at www.morethanalanguage.com. Additionally, you can find a link at the same website to flashcards for this and every episode, which pick out some of the most advanced vocabulary so that you can perfect your spoken fluency.
[00:00:34.180] - Oliver (Host)
One of our listeners completed our feedback survey, which is still available on the website I just mentioned, and suggested this topic. She asked me to discuss how I felt about being part of a childless couple in the UK now that I'm in my mid-30s, an age at which many of my friends and peers are beginning to start a family to have children.
[00:00:57.390] - Oliver (Host)
I don't have children. I don't plan to have children, and these days, I'm not alone. Over the last 35 years in the UK, the number of people without children has grown. For example, about 18% of British women who are 45 years old today don't have children. This is much higher than 30 years ago, when only 10% of women at that age didn't have kids.
[00:01:24.980] - Oliver (Host)
In other words, the number of people without children has almost doubled in 30 years. Furthermore, women are having their first child later in life. Today, the average age for a woman to have her first baby is 30.7 years. These changes show that society has changed how people think about having children. Sociologists, people who study society and trends within it, say that there are many reasons for this. One reason is that fewer people are getting married in the first place. But an even bigger reason is that people see children as more expensive, both in time and money, compared to focusing on work or their free time. Many of my friends say they want to be financially stable and have successful careers before they even think about children. This means some people wait so long that having children becomes harder biologically. Another important reason is that it's now more acceptable to choose not to have children at all. Some people simply decide they don't want kids, and they feel more able to say that openly. Nonetheless, even nowadays, many of my straight male and female friends, and in particular the women, talk about the tremendous pressure that they feel to get married and to have children.
[00:02:54.580] - Oliver (Host)
And that's despite the changes that I just discussed. This pressure comes especially from their parents, the potential grandparents, that is. However, there is also the implicit pressure of seeing everyone else around you taking a big step forward in their lives and wondering (error: worrying!) that you're being left behind. Talking to people of older generations, I get the impression that they didn't even consider that they had a choice. It was a given. It was virtually a certainty that they would have to get married and they would at least try to have children. For me personally, being gay means that I sit a little outside of this pressure cooker. Of course, I do get asked by people occasionally, particularly straight people, whether I hope to have children, but the intensity of the expectation isn't the same. I have gay and lesbian friends with kids, but it's unusual. It's not assumed that we will have them. My parents never ask me if I'm going to have kids. They don't expect me to have them and my mum openly says she thinks I'll have a happier life without them. I guess it also helps that I have six straight siblings, most of whom have kids of their own, so my parents have more grandchildren than they know what to do with, than they have time for. So as I said previously, I don't want to have kids. But funnily enough, when I was younger, I absolutely did intend to have them. But it wasn't just kids. I had a very clear view of all the things I wanted to have in life. I wanted to go to the the very best university I could, to get a finance job in the City, that is, in the financial district of London, to get married young, to have children, and to live in a big house in the suburbs, in the outskirts of a city. In short, I wanted what we can call a white picket fence life. This phrase is quite American, and what it represents is that idealised life that we see on TV, a beautiful home with a gorgeous garden surrounded by a perfectly painted white fence. For me, part of the reason I wanted that whole life with all those typical suburban elements was to prove that I could be successful and acceptable and normal as a gay man. That's quite an odd statement, potentially, so I probably need to give some context.
[00:05:20.320] - Oliver (Host)
When I was a teenager and young adult, there were long and bitter arguments around the world about whether gay people should be allowed to get married. Various US states for example, passed gay marriage laws and then had them essentially revoked or undone. I'm not seeking to turn this into a political episode, but I think that watching these debates from the UK in my teenage years had an interesting and definite impact on my view of the world. I think that I wanted that white picket fence life because it would have shown everyone, and maybe even myself, that I was capable of meeting those traditional expectations that I was a normal person, that I could be and deserved to be happy in a normal way. So, as I said, I was very clear about what I wanted, a great job in the city, a handsome husband, a big house, material success, and a loving family. To me, this was my own British interpretation of the famous American dream, and I started along that journey quite successfully. However, as I ticked off each step along the way, I realised that I didn't really want what I had thought that I wanted.
[00:06:32.420] - Oliver (Host)
I realised that these things weren't going to make me happy in the way that I had hoped. And I also realised that I wanted these things entirely for the wrong reasons. Looking back, it would have been utterly, completely crazy to have brought someone into this world, a child, to prove that I was deserving and capable of a normal life. Now I feel like I have made recent decisions in my life that bring me more happiness, and I worry less about trying to please other people. I live my life less concerned about obtaining the good opinion of other people. But despite those changes of viewpoint, there is still a small part of me that is sad that I won't have kids, and most of that is to do with the fact that I really love and appreciate my family. In a surprise to absolutely no one who regularly listens to this podcast, my mum is a vital part of my life story. My dad is too, but in a different way. I don't call my dad up and tell him everything that happens to me like I do with my mum. I don't think he'd find that very interesting. But I do talk to my mum virtually every day, and I am sometimes a bit sad that I won't have that same relationship with a child of my own one day.
[00:07:50.510] - Oliver (Host)
And then I think of people like my older brother. Having children changed his life. It was, as we say in English, the making of him. That means in this context, that it made him mature, grow up, take more responsibility, and settle down. His life, I'm sure he would agree, has turned out wonderfully as a result of having children. So why am I so adamant, so sure, so certain that I don't want children? That's the big question, isn't it? Now, it's not that I dislike kids. I was, after all, a secondary school teacher myself for some years. I found the teenagers and their moodiness to be pretty amusing sometimes. They're also refreshingly honest. They'll tell you straight to your face if they find you boring. I actually think I understood the kids pretty well, too. They certainly used to tell me that they enjoyed my classes. Believe me, when you're teaching teenagers high school Latin, if you can actually hold their interest for two hours a week, you can feel pretty pleased with yourself.
[00:08:57.500] - Oliver (Host)
A big part of the reason is that, at least at the moment, I simply don't want the pressure. My parents sacrificed so much to give their children the absolute best start in life that they could. Frankly, I know how proud they are of us. My mum, in particular, is prouder of the job she's done as a mother than maybe anything else in her entire life. One example I can give of my parents' personal sacrifice, one that will probably make both of them very uncomfortable if they're listening, is that they, like many people in unhappy marriages, stayed together for the benefit of the children. They separated when I was about 13, but to all intents and purposes, they stayed together. I saw both my parents every day because they lived next door to each other, even when they were separated. We all went on holiday together, and to my knowledge, neither of them has ever had a romantic relationship with anyone else since. Effectively, they sacrificed their romantic happiness, at least partially, for us kids, to give us a stable and normal family life. I'm incredibly grateful to them for this, but was it really the right thing for them if they'd been thinking selfishly or prioritising themselves?
[00:10:14.850] - Oliver (Host)
Probably not. I feel bad that neither of them ever found anyone else. It's been easier and more convenient for everyone that they didn't, but what if they had? Would they be happier now? I'll never know, and neither, frankly, will they. So my parents sacrificed many opportunities for their own personal happiness and ease of living to make our lives better. And their parents sacrificed for them. And I already see my sister doing the same. She puts her children first and her own needs second, always. She is, in many ways, an ideal mother, willing to do whatever it takes to ensure her daughters are happy, successful, and prosperous. But the trouble for me is that when her daughters grow up and they feel as grateful as we feel for the sacrifices our parents made for us, they'll naturally feel obligated to do the same for their children, to potentially cause themselves unhappiness in an attempt to give their kids the best start in life. So when does this cycle of sacrifice end? What's the point of every generation giving up so much for the next? It seems to me like a never-ending loop. And I know that if I did become a parent, I'd probably be so concerned about my children's happiness that I'd end up making them miserable.
[00:11:38.990] - Oliver (Host)
And another significant thing for me is that I often hear the argument that we should have children because, well, who else is going to look after you when you're old? Or there's the threat that you'll be lonely when you're old without children. I personally dislike that argument very much. First, I think it's a very selfish reason to have children. To have someone to look after me when I'm old. Secondly, there's absolutely no guarantee that your children would be willing to care for you. You don't have to look very far to find children estranged from their parents or simply unwilling or unable to provide for them with the necessary care in their old age. And there are plenty of incredibly lonely grandparents out there. If someone is having children to have an easy old age, they may have a shock coming. Ultimately, I think the decision to have children should come from a place of genuine desire, not obligation. And I personally would only want to do it if I thought that I had an excellent chance of providing that child with a good life. Perhaps that's part of the reason birth rates in the West are declining, are going down - our generation has had more freedom to think carefully about whether parenthood is right for us, and for better or worse, many children are deciding against having kids. For now, personally, I'm very content with the life that I have. It feels full and it feels meaningful, even without kids. I have great opportunities. I have freedom, and I have a lot of love. Who knows what the future holds? Maybe I'll change my mind one day, but right now, I'm happy with the life that I'm building. But what about you? Have you thought about how parenthood or the decision not to have children has shaped your life? I'd love to hear your thoughts, obviously, as always. You can leave a comment on my Instagram post @BritishEnglishandBeyond, or on Spotify, or you can email me directly, which I always love. As always, don't forget to subscribe, follow, and please do remember to download the transcript, if you like, from www.morethanalanguage.com. But this isn't the end of the episode because I have César here with me to give me his thoughts on this important and potentially controversial topic. César, thanks for coming in.
[00:14:12.480] - César (Guest)
You're very welcome.
[00:14:13.440] - Oliver (Host)
Into the living room.
[00:14:15.590] - César (Guest)
Very handy.
[00:14:16.610] - Oliver (Host)
Very handy, yes, exactly. So, César, let's begin with the only question I have written, and a question that really you ought to ask someone before you've gone out with them or been in a relationship with them for eight years. Do you want to have kids?
[00:14:34.950] - César (Guest)
I guess I don't. I used to want to have kids when I was 20, weirdly, when I was very, very young. As I grew older, I realised that I don't think it's for me, but I don't know what the face are in 10 years time is going to think or how what his situation is going to be. I don't think I will become a father. But never say never.
[00:15:09.060] - Oliver (Host)
Never say never.
[00:15:09.640] - César (Guest)
That's the thing, right?
[00:15:10.710] - Oliver (Host)
That's a good phrase. We've talked in the podcast before about the importance of the relationship that you have with your sister. And because there's such a big age gap, there are some paternal elements in your relationship.
[00:15:24.790] - César (Guest)
Yeah, definitely. I always say that I have the training to be a father already done because I changed diapers, I fed her. I've done all the things that you do with a baby, with a toddler, with a teenager. Now we are both of us are adults now. But I have experienced that from a different perspective. But it's a quite paternal relationship, or it was for a few years. Now it's becoming more like an adult relationship.
[00:15:58.680] - Oliver (Host)
You probably had, in a way, a more hands-on relationship than lots of dads would. Hands-on meaning really getting involved. Because I think that a lot of the time, fathers, not always, but often, fathers are the main breadwinners for the family. The breadwinner is the person who earns the most money in the household. And part of the problem for many women of having children is that they perceive often correctly, right, that it's going to be an obstacle for their career progress. Whereas you were at school when your little sister was born. And so you probably were called on by your mum to do more things than most fathers would actually do. I think that lots of fathers go through their entire parenthood, entire fatherhood, without ever changing a nappy. We say nappies. You said diaper. Diaper is American.
[00:16:51.140] - César (Guest)
Diaper is American. Okay, yeah. What I experienced in my household was that both the father and mother were quite, like, splitting the task that involves to have a baby, more or less the same. But I was also giving (lending) a hand and doing basic things, like preparing baby bottles and feeding my sister and going for a walk with her if they would go out for dinner once in a while.
[00:17:25.700] - Oliver (Host)
But that's an experience of parenthood that most children don't have.
[00:17:28.750] - César (Guest)
I really, really I enjoyed it. It's interesting how I was really able to do that when I was 17, and I felt that I did it really well. Now I'm super insecure about holding a baby or feeding a baby or doing whatever.
[00:17:47.960] - Oliver (Host)
It's a shame that I'm so obsessed about my anonymity, because there was that excellent photo from the recent christening that we went to, where they - this was very Spanish for me because a lot of the times in the UK, I think that nowadays, people, women don't want you to touch their bellies, their pregnant bellies, without permission for obvious reasons.
[00:18:12.800] - César (Guest)
I touched your sister's belly.
[00:18:14.640] - Oliver (Host)
I know. She doesn't mind because it was you. But for lots of women, it's a real obvious invasion of their space. So there's that element of that, and a lot of the time, I think women now in the UK would not want strangers to hold their baby. But in this Spanish christening, I didn't want to hold the baby, the stranger. But basically, they were taking this baby around with incredibly loud music and just thrusting, pushing it into the arms of everyone. And I was like, "Please don't do this." And the baby is crying in my arms in the photo. I'm basically crying in the photo.
[00:18:53.530] - César (Guest)
You are holding the baby like that, very awkwardly as well.
[00:18:57.960] - Oliver (Host)
Maybe I'll ask permission of, of the baby's mother to post that photo anonymised.
[00:19:04.230] - César (Guest)
We can blur your face and the baby's face as well.
[00:19:08.480] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly.
[00:19:09.910] - César (Guest)
That's one of the things that I would hate the most about becoming a father and having a baby, you know, especially in Spain. Like, everyone holding and kissing your baby. I used to hate that with my sister. There is no, the culture of kissing and hugging and -
[00:19:32.800] - Oliver (Host)
Invading the personal space.
[00:19:33.500] - César (Guest)
Invading personal space, especially with kids. Now, I think it's changing. There's a new generation, our age, our generation, where if they become parents, they don't force the kids to give a kiss to someone they don't know, for example.
[00:19:50.150] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. But it's a difficult balance to find because it's very hard to... Looking at it from the UK's I think people there are more independent than in Spain, by which I mean people do things without the help of the extended family, which makes it very hard to have a baby, I think. But here, I think there's more understanding that the whole family will be involved. Which is, I think family is more important in Spain than in the UK.
[00:20:19.050] - César (Guest)
I think it's actually a Mediterranean thing rather than Spanish.
[00:20:22.610] - Oliver (Host)
But I think part of the problem with that then is that that means that you are exposed to lots of people's opinions, strong opinions often about how you should raise your baby.
[00:20:32.760] - César (Guest)
Ah yeah, and people will share their opinions without, (with) no shame.
[00:20:37.640] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, and without being asked. So unsolicited opinions. And I know that my sister, well, she'll feel that I share my opinion too much about how to raise a baby, given that I have no children. I imagine that if I became a father, I would be along the same lines as her, I would be of the same vein as her and probably feel similarly. So I think that's another reason why I don't want to have children, because I don't want other people's opinions about something that's so important. And yet, as goes the famous expression, it takes a village to raise a child. And I think that an offshoot of that independence is that it's so hard to have children nowadays. There's so much information. I think that anyone who listens to this podcast will know basically that I have some sort of hatred towards the internet? The trouble is the internet makes us so aware of all of the dangers in raising a child that, I think that you have to be a very relaxed person not to feel incredibly anxious about all the bad things that can happen to your child in the world.
[00:21:46.780] - César (Guest)
Another reason not to become fathers. I'm talking about us because we are not relaxed people.
[00:21:53.150] - Oliver (Host)
We are so anxious, yes.
[00:21:54.850] - César (Guest)
Can I ask you something? Because you are someone who suffers a lot from FOMO, fear of missing out, about many different things, trips, experiences, whatever. Do you ever experience FOMO about parenthood?
[00:22:11.510] - Oliver (Host)
Not really. And I think that probably two things have happened that have really helped that. The first one is going to sound probably a bit offensive, but my sister that I'm closest to of all of my siblings, she got two kids and - love them, great, great nieces, love them! But I'm very happy to be able to say goodbye and not have to look after them 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. That seems awful to me. Jokes aside, they are two very nice little girls. And so, yeah, I just don't think I could. And the other thing that happened to me is that I became a teacher.
[00:22:55.270] - César (Guest)
Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to ask that question.
[00:22:57.950] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I had to do some training to become a teacher, very limited amount of training in a primary school, which is from the age of about 4 to 11. Then I worked full-time in a secondary school from 11 to 18. And although I said in my dialogue (monologue), I do actually quite like teenagers. I find them quite funny. I find their moodiness quite confusing, generally speaking. I know from having done all that training and teaching that there is no age of childhood that I would want to have to spend all day, every day with, basically. Some people probably consider it almost hateful, but I'm just not interested. And maybe the further away I get from the experience of being in a school, the more FOMO I will start to experience. But at the moment, my memories of being a teacher are too strong for me to actually experience FOMO.
[00:23:58.900] - César (Guest)
If we ever become fathers
[00:24:01.920] - Oliver (Host)
Parents.
[00:24:02.470] - César (Guest)
Fathers, parents, it'd be interesting for our children to see or listen to this podcast.
[00:24:12.970] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:24:14.070] - César (Guest)
Well, he or he won't feel very...
[00:24:17.200] - Oliver (Host)
It's true. Well, no, because I'm sure, well...
[00:24:21.770] - César (Guest)
But I wasn't a desired child. I was... Like, literally, I wasn't expected. No one was looking for me.
[00:24:29.770] - Oliver (Host)
My mum's phrase for this is the gift from God.
[00:24:32.540] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:24:33.290] - Oliver (Host)
And her phrase, when she wanted a child, which she uses to describe my birth, was planned like a military campaign. Because my mum has had a range of planning in the children that she's had. Sometimes it's been more of a gift, and sometimes it's been more of a campaign than others.
[00:24:54.680] - César (Guest)
It happens.
[00:24:56.600] - Oliver (Host)
So I have a very me question.
[00:24:58.950] - César (Guest)
Okay. Go ahead.
[00:25:00.950] - César (Guest)
You say with trepidation, you say with a little bit of fear. Okay. Thinking of FOMO, as you said, what is the thing that you would miss most about not having a child?
[00:25:17.490] - César (Guest)
I think I'm someone who likes loving people. And I think that's the thing I probably would miss the most loving your own child. I think it's a different type, a very specific type of love that I wouldn't be able to experience if I never become a father.
[00:25:44.200] - Oliver (Host)
That's very nice and tender. Let's just get a sausage dog.
[00:25:53.530] - César (Guest)
Actually, because you're saying that because today we've seen... We met a sausage dog, and he was the cutest thing ever. And he was, I think, really depressed. I felt bad for him.
[00:26:05.830] - Oliver (Host)
It's because you're not his dad. It looks like you're about to cry. The tears are welling up in your eyes.
[00:26:12.790] - César (Guest)
He's probably got some issues, health issues, or something, no? Because they have many issues.
[00:26:17.590] - Oliver (Host)
They do, but I don't think he does yet because he looked quite young and spry, quite nimble as he was running around.
[00:26:25.900] - César (Guest)
What is the thing that you would miss the most? Like planning their education and all the language lessons that they're doing.
[00:26:34.190] - Oliver (Host)
Get back in your bedroom and learn your Latin right now. No, it's probably a little bit like we discussed in that episode with music. My mum doesn't even listen to very much music, and yet I really connect certain songs with her. It's just the... This, again, is a very me, very my family answer that I'm about to give, but it's not about particular moments or anything like that. It would be just about the depth of that relationship. When it's a good relationship, I think it's a relationship that's unparalleled. So...
[00:27:15.110] - César (Guest)
It's like any type of relationship. I know people who don't have any siblings, and they are like, "Oh, I wish I had a sister, I had a brother, I could experience that type of love," or people who've never been in love. Obviously, you can get by, you can have a really good life without children, without siblings, without a partner. But sometimes you feel that you would like to experience what it feels like.
[00:27:41.250] - Oliver (Host)
I suppose that for me, I don't feel it enough because I think that when people have children, I think it's a bit... Because there's a lot of sacrifice involved and for women, so much pain, I think it's a bit necessary sometimes to have a delusion that your relationship with your child is going to be almost perfect.
[00:28:06.420] - César (Guest)
I guess instinct also comes along, right?
[00:28:09.690] - Oliver (Host)
For sure. But I think that there are, so I have such a good relationship with my mum, for example. And nowadays have a really nice relationship with my dad. But even with that, I see my mum feel so stressed still about her kids and her youngest child is 34. No, 33. It never ends. It never ends. I trust my mum so much, and she says to me, Don't have kids.
[00:28:44.440] - César (Guest)
My mum said the same to me.
[00:28:47.460] - Oliver (Host)
We're both mummy boys, mummies' boys.
[00:28:50.020] - César (Guest)
Maybe they say that because they don't think we are capable.
[00:28:54.720] - Oliver (Host)
No. Well, the last thing I'm actually going to say on the podcast is that I think that you would be an excellent father, much better than me. No one ever says to me, "Oh, Oliver, you'd be a great dad." Whereas they do say to me, "Oliver, César would be a great dad!" But I think you would be a great dad. But there's lots of other elements of life, and you can be a great dad to the sausage dog. We can call him Salchicha.
[00:29:25.500] - César (Guest)
Salchicha Inglesa.
[00:29:26.780] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly. So thank you, César. Thank you. I don't know why you're crying.
[00:29:33.520] - César (Guest)
I'm not crying. I'm not crying.
[00:29:35.770] - Oliver (Host)
But it's been nice to talk to you about this. And, listener, please follow the podcast, subscribe, send it to your parents, your kids.
[00:29:53.170] - César (Guest)
And tell us what you think about this.
[00:29:55.770] - Oliver (Host)
Unless it's hateful. In which case, please, you know, don't. But thank you very much for listening.
[00:30:03.900] - César (Guest)
Thank you.
[00:30:04.460] - Oliver (Host)
And until next time.
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