Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:
[00:00:00.000] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I am the host. You can find a transcript for this episode available at www.morethanalanguage.com.
[00:00:14.080] - Oliver (Host)
Today, I have a special guest, Federica, who has probably the best level of English of any non-native speaker that I have ever met, apart from César, of course, who's standing here looking daggers at me. And I have to say, Federica, I apologise in advance because my little speech at the beginning of this episode is extremely long because I have a lot to say about this topic. So let's get to it.
[00:00:40.850] - Oliver (Host)
I'm going to tell you a story about a time in my life that taught me a very valuable lesson about managing my own expectations. This story takes place in Italy. Italy is one of the most iconic countries in the world. Its shape on the world maps in the form of a high-heeled boot can be identified immediately by children across the globe and fits well with its glamorous reputation for fashion. People think of Italy and they think immediately of its cuisine. They think: pizza, pasta, Prosecco. They also think of its art and artists: Michelangelo, Madame Butterfly, Monica Bellucci.
[00:01:19.810] - Oliver (Host)
However, for most of my life, Italy was actually more important to me because of its ancient history rather than its modern culture. The Roman Empire, which apparently every man thinks about every week, according to recent memes, and its language, Latin, were the focus of my education for most of my teenage life. I started studying Latin when I was nine, and I carried on through until I was 22, so I knew a lot about Italian history and a lot about its ancient language. But back in 2015, I actually knew very little about Italy as a modern country, as a real place where real people lived, rather than just all the cultural artefacts and incredible history that it was well-known for.
[00:02:05.550] - Oliver (Host)
In 2015, I was working as a lawyer for a British law firm, which had its headquarters in London, but had offices all over the world. I was living in Frankfurt, Germany, and working from my firm's office there. I remember that towards the end of my contracted period of six months in Germany, I was just about to board a long haul flight to come back from a holiday to South Korea, of all places, when I received an unexpected an email from HR, Human Resources, in the London office, and they wrote, "Dear Oliver, I hope you're well. We've just had a space open up in the Milan office. Would you like to spend six more months abroad rather than coming straight back to London?"
[00:02:45.340] - Oliver (Host)
Listener, I can't tell you how excited I was to receive that email. I positively skipped onto the plane. Skipping, by the way, is the kind of happy jumping and leaping that you see children do in the playground so you can imagine my excitement. There was no doubt in my mind that: one, I would accept this transfer; and two, it would be the best six months of my life. Here comes the lesson: little did I know, La Dolce Vita was not waiting for me in Italy. Instead, I would have a much more realistic Italian experience, and I had moments of deep profound dissatisfaction during my time in Milan.
[00:03:26.530] - Oliver (Host)
Now, first, of course, there would be the issue of the language. Italian is famous for being a beautiful, romantic language. According to my mother, it's the most beautiful language in the world. I didn't speak a word of Italian at this time. I did speak Spanish, however, and I could read and write Latin before I went, and my law firm paid for me to do an intensive language course for a couple of weeks. All these things helped me to get a preliminary grip on the language. Obviously, a fortnight, even with 6-8 hours of lessons a day, isn't enough to speak a language fluently, but I was definitely able to hold a conversation, at least, by the time I arrived in Italy. One issue that quickly arose, however, was the ugly mix of Italian and Spanish that I ended up speaking. It didn't flow particularly naturally, and although I was able to get by in most business or practical situations, it really did hinder forming friendships.
[00:04:24.110] - Oliver (Host)
And it was hard for me to make friends in Italy. Normally, being gay is actually really big advantage in this regard, at least in my experience. Every time I've moved to a new place in the past, I found a ready-made community there in the city. I've gone to bars by myself or used online apps and met and made friends really quickly. This, to be blunt, did not happen in Milan. I spent a very long time trying to make friends on the gay scene there, and I would say that I ended up with maybe one new friend in the whole six months. So, shout out to Pietro!
[00:05:01.430] - Oliver (Host)
Even outside of the gay scene, it was really tough to make friends. It seemed to me that the Mediterranean stereotype of staying close to home and remaining in close-knit family groups was true, even in the metropolis of Milan. Most of the people I met were either virtually commuting to Milan from the south of Italy and went back every weekend, or they'd spent their entire lives in Milan and had strong friendships that they'd enjoyed since childhood. Either way, people were friendly enough towards me, but no one wanted to actually be my friend. If this sounds like a Disney film with a lonely adolescent main character, that's because that's exactly how it felt. Every day, I would take advantage of the very, very long Italian lunch hours to walk alone somewhat melancholically, around this great city. But those long lunch hours were a welcome break from the job. Oh my God, the job. I found this aspect of Italian life extremely difficult.
[00:05:59.410] - Oliver (Host)
Italy had an office hierarchy unlike anything I'd seen in London or Frankfurt. The junior lawyers in the office had absolutely no control over their working lives, and I frequently saw them in tears after being bullied, belittled, and yelled at constantly by the qualified lawyers. I was protected from most of this because I was qualifying as an English law solicitor, which meant that it was quite limited who I could work with in the office, although my principal boss presented difficulties of his own. The most typical situation was that I would frequently have to cancel evening plans on a moment's notice. That in itself is not unusual in law, but this man seemed to take pleasure in controlling my work-life balance. I remember one weekend in particular. My boss had told me at about 9:00 PM on Friday night, "What are you doing this weekend?" I said, cautiously, "Well, I thought I might go to some of the lakes, get to know the area a bit. I've already bought the train tickets..." His response was brief: "Cancel it, scrap it. I need you in tomorrow at 08:00am." Biting my tongue, I agreed. And the next morning, like the reliable, naive idiot that I am, I was there, 08:00am sharp. But do you know who wasn't there? My boss. I sat, waiting in the office. 8:30am came and went. Another half hour ticked by. Still nothing. I waited more, drumming my fingers on my desk.
[00:07:30.050] - Oliver (Host)
Should I leave? Should I call him? Eventually, he did turn up 3 hours late at 11:00am. But this strangeness didn't end there. He barely spoke to me and gave me no work to do, despite my asking very timidly and politely. Instead, he waved me away with a stressed hand. Eventually, he came into my office at 1:00pm and said, "Right, let's go for lunch." Furiously, I went out of the office with him and sat down to lunch, sulking like a petulent child, a child that is unhappy with the situation and wants to let you know. Eventually, we went back to the office and he asked me if anything was wrong. I was seething. He gave me a handwritten piece of paper and 20 minutes of typing to do. And then I was free. I had cancelled my weekend plans and lost my entire Saturday for less than half an hour of typing. Variations of this dynamic took place over the entire six months. I can't count the number of days that I had precious little to do during the day, followed by long nights. My boss's favourite thing to do was ignore me all day until about 08:00pm and then come into my office and throw the day's work down onto my desk. I got back from work after 2:00am for no reason, about 60% of the time, and it was infuriating.
[00:08:50.960] - Oliver (Host)
So, as you can see, my expectations, my dreams of these six months in Italy being the best of my life were crushed. I had an unfriendly boss, I had no friends, and yet I can never quite shake off the feeling that this should have been an amazing experience. Sometimes, during my lonely walks around central Milan, where my office was, I would just marvel at how beautiful some of the buildings were, like the famous Duomo and Villa Necchi, and all this in a city which other Italians make fun of for being ugly. The food was great, but I had very few people to enjoy it with, and this was the paradox of my time in Italy. But then again, maybe that makes sense. It does seem to me that Italy is a country of paradoxes. When anthropologists try to measure countries against one another, Italy shines in cultural metrics, but it struggles in other really significant areas of living. In the "US News and World Report", Italy is ranked as number one for heritage and cultural influence, with overall scores of 100% in these two categories, and it's number two in the listings for adventure.
[00:10:00.070] - Oliver (Host)
It scores top marks for being scenic and fun and for its tourism industry in general, and its fashion industry is highlighted as a particular strength. Its cuisine, with all that pizza and pasta, is probably the most famous in the world - I'm sorry, France - but in these same reports, it scores only 51.4 out of 100 for quality of life and finds itself particularly criticised in these rankings on the basis of public education and health. So on the one hand, Italy is a dream destination with picturesque landscapes, historic cities, and a rich tapestry of art, music, and culinary delights. It's a place where La Dolce Vita, the sweet life, is not just a saying, but in theory, a real experience that you can live. However, the daily realities for many Italians tell a different story. Public education in Italy, while free and accessible, often suffers from outdated facilities and bureaucratic hurdles. Similarly, the public health system, though providing universal coverage, is frequently criticised for long wait times and regional disparities in the quality of care. These issues can detract from the overall quality of life, leading to frustration and a sense of stagnation among residents.
[00:11:14.880] - Oliver (Host)
Yet Italians have a remarkable knack for finding joy despite these challenges. The emphasis on family, community, and enjoying the simple pleasures of life - good food, good company, and beautiful surroundings - can often compensate for the systemic inefficiencies. This cultural attitude, a blend of stoicism and hedonism, might be one of the reasons why Italy continues to thrive as a top tourist destination while its citizens navigate the complexities of everyday life with a certain grace and self-effacing humour. Maybe this is why I was so disappointed with my Italian experience. The thing I lacked was exactly what is Italy's saving grace for its people: them! Their friends, their families!
[00:11:57.540] - Oliver (Host)
Now, I should probably be worrying that I'm going to be inundated, flooded, by emails from furious Italians for criticising their homeland. But I suspect, in reality, that this will not be the case. In fact, I think most of the emails I receive from any Italian listeners will probably be in agreement. I have two reasons for thinking this. The first is that I have since then travelled to quite a few different places throughout Italy, and the only thing that all Italians seem to agree on is the inefficiency of their own public services and the infrastructure and the country as a whole. No one is more critical of Italy than the Italians themselves. Secondly, I'm not sure that there are many European countries where there is such a division between the different areas of Italy. Every Italian who wasn't Milanese, with whom I've spoken about my experiences in Milan, has raised their hands in the air in a very Italian gesture and said, "Well, what did you expect? That's Milan for you."
[00:12:57.020] - Oliver (Host)
To help me puzzle out the mystery of modern Italy, and maybe to process, to work, through my Italian trauma, I have one of my very best friends in the world here with me. I met Federica when we were both at Oxford, where she was studying Geography. Remarkably, she came second in her entire year across the university despite studying in a language that was not her native tongue. In fact, the only girl that beat her was someone who had come up to Federica, tearfully begging for her notes and claiming to be about to fail her finals. Federica probably now firmly believes the sarcastic English idiom that "No good deed goes unpunished". So, Federica, the first thing I have to say is thank you, 'grazie mille'.
[00:13:38.620] - Federica (Guest)
Grazie Oliver, grazie a te!
[00:13:41.680] - Oliver (Host)
So I didn't have time to mention it in my little spiel, which I said at the beginning is the longest little spiel I've ever had, but you were more or less the only thing that kept me sane during my time in Milan.
[00:13:52.360] - Federica (Guest)
I was wondering where that piece will come in.
[00:13:55.360] - Oliver (Host)
So, I mean, my first question, really, is that obviously you are from Milan. What is growing up in Italy and Milan?
[00:14:01.950] - Federica (Guest)
I was actually ready to be quite angered by your speech because you had previously told me that you would be criticising Italy. And obviously, it's very easy to criticise your own country, but it's difficult hearing it from other people. But surprisingly, you are right. Everything you said was spot on, and I can't actually argue with any of it. I would say I left Milan when I was 17 because a lot of my experiences were similar to yours. For example, when you talk about the cliquey nature of friendships in the city in Milan, I completely agree with you. Growing up, I experienced a very insular environment whereby my same friends aged four remained my friends until age 17 when I finished high school. And although this sounds in theory, charming, in practice, it was actually very difficult.
[00:14:54.450] - Oliver (Host)
Quite claustrophobic.
[00:14:55.730] - Federica (Guest)
Extremely claustrophobic. And then I would also say, you change a lot from age 4 to age 17, but your so-called friends never let you forget that. So if you had a bad experience, age 4, like, I don't know, wetting your pants, you will still be the pant wetter, age 17. Now, luckily, this was not my case.
[00:15:21.810] - Oliver (Host)
Are you going to name drop the person who did wet their pants?
[00:15:26.700] - Federica (Guest)
No, no. Such things are to remain private.
[00:15:29.530] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not really surprised to hear that. And in fact, I think that especially for someone like you who - I've seen the photos, you've changed a lot.
[00:15:38.140] - Federica (Guest)
I blossomed, let's say, age 12.
[00:15:40.670] - Oliver (Host)
So I can imagine that it must be quite frustrating to feel trapped in that same image?
[00:15:48.390] - Federica (Guest)
Completely, number one. And number two, obviously, the amount of fights and disagreements over the course of 13 years of shared friendship are actually quite a lot. So in a sense, basically, when I call it friendship, it's a little bit strange because you're kind of stuck with the same people all of your life. But because of so much history and so much change during those formative years, the people you end up with, you probably might not like very much anymore, in a sense.
[00:16:19.300] - Oliver (Host)
And it's not like you chose them when you were four, either.
[00:16:20.960] - Federica (Guest)
Exactly.
[00:16:22.280] - Oliver (Host)
Well, actually, that brings me to my next question, which is to ask about the fact that you've been here for such a long time. So you said that you left Italy when you were 17.
[00:16:31.080] - Federica (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:16:31.750] - Oliver (Host)
We're coming up for what, 20 years?
[00:16:32.550] - Federica (Guest)
Yeah. Well, that's nasty. I like to pretend I'm still 29 at heart.
[00:16:38.590] - Oliver (Host)
The reality is now you've spent more time in the UK, basically, than-
[00:16:41.870] - Federica (Guest)
Probably, yes. I did have a stint returning to Milan, which is when you were there, right? So I returned to Milan for, oh, actually, maybe seven years at a certain point, right?
[00:16:53.460] - Oliver (Host)
God, really? I suppose you were coming-
[00:16:55.440] - Federica (Guest)
Because I went back to work for my family. My family had a business in Italy, so I returned to help out. Yeah, and things did not change. I also found it very, very difficult to make friends in the city after having been gone so long. In fact, the only new friend that I made was my hairdresser because he was the only person who I saw with some consistency over time.
[00:17:20.100] - Oliver (Host)
And you were paying him to hang out with you.
[00:17:22.780] - Federica (Guest)
Yes. He was forced to like me.
[00:17:27.240] - Oliver (Host)
I do actually think that the strength of London, that more than anywhere else I've lived, of the four countries or the four major cities that I've lived in, you really can meet people quite easily in bars and kind of have a good time with them. I think one of the criticisms of the London nightlife is that it might be very temporary.
[00:17:45.650] - Federica (Guest)
So that's, I think, part of the nature of London being such an international city, right? Everybody's a foreigner, pretty much. I think my husband is the only Londoner that I actually know who was born in London and stayed in London, really. So I would say that probably because everybody's a foreigner, everybody's more up for being friends and meeting people.
[00:18:06.080] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Whereas I didn't even have those temporary friendships in Italy. You were really my lifeline because even though I'm light-hearted about it in my little speech, I was feeling quite profoundly depressed during that six months for various different reasons, not just about being in Italy, obviously, but I felt so lonely. And I saw you as much as I possibly could, but you had a life. You had a very, very busy job. You did know other people. I mean, even then, we actually saw each other every week. I would come over for dinner. You would cook me spectacular Italian food. I've never returned the favour because I'm a terrible cook and I'm embarrassed by the idea of even cooking you food.
[00:18:45.280] - Federica (Guest)
And also because you had a very long vegan phase.
[00:18:49.260] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly.
[00:18:50.560] - Federica (Guest)
So that is one of the positives of Italy, I think. There's a lot of lovely fresh produce available. The days are long. It's nice to eat outside in your garden. And it's also one of the nice things about Milan. It is surrounded by so much beautiful nature. The mountains are only an hour and a half travel. You know, the Coast is probably about the same. Venice is about two and a half hours away. So that really helps, I think.
[00:19:17.990] - Oliver (Host)
But I think that's the funny thing, because I think that, for me, explains a lot of the bad temperedness that Italians feel about their own country, that it is so easy to list off all these incredible advantages that it has. It should be the happiest country in the world, really.
[00:19:34.160] - Federica (Guest)
Yeah, but sometimes Italians joke that Italy is good despite their government, right? And as you were saying in your speech, I think the way that Italians are governed and, sort of, public life is managed goes a long way to explain why Italians are unhappy. To your point, services are definitely not what they should be. Everything in Italy is extremely bureaucratic. I remember once for my job with my father, and one of our clients had not paid us and we needed to go to court about this. And I remember going into the office of, the public court office to try and find the documents relative to this court trial that we were undergoing. We entered through this little narrow lift, which stank of cigarettes, in theory, people should not be smoking in public buildings. The lift doors opened and the corridor was just full of piles and piles of paper, everything handwritten, no digitalisation, no proper filing system. It almost seemed like a scene from a comedy movie or a cartoon, almost. I arrived in this office and there was, again, a smoking Italian man.
[00:20:55.360] - Oliver (Host)
A caricature.
[00:20:55.360] - Federica (Guest)
A caricature, again, surrounded, like almost invisible behind these piles and piles of paper who, when asked about my court case, said that we'd missed the deadline to file important information and scrambled around to find, you know, the relative documents for the appeal, obviously not managing to find them, so we automatically lost the court case because nobody had warned us about the deadline, nobody had warned us about the appeal, and the documents, relative to the appeal, were impossible to find.
[00:21:28.580] - Oliver (Host)
Oh, wow.
[00:21:29.450] - Federica (Guest)
So Extremely frustrating, as you can imagine. And this is just one little example of how your life can be severely impacted by the inefficiencies of the Italian system, really.
[00:21:42.840] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, well, that might actually answer my next question, which is, obviously, you have been here in the UK for a long time now. A lot of the things that I was saying about Italy, about its bureaucracy, about the regional disparities in the health system, basically, they could just be applied exactly the same to the UK. But do you think that the UK and Italy are in similar situations at the moment, or is it a European-wide malaise? Because everyone in Britain now complains about the state of Britain.
[00:22:11.370] - Federica (Guest)
Yes, I think the state of Britain has actually changed a lot from when I was here to today. Because I remember-
[00:22:19.200] - Oliver (Host)
So we're assuming that that's correlation, not causation.
[00:22:22.410] - Federica (Guest)
Well, I don't think that I've destabilised the entire system of governance of United Kingdom since my arrival, no. I think it's probably, to be honest, a global malaise, right? In a sense, it reminds me - you know when you're first in a relationship and you act really well, really, really nicely? And then you introduce a little element of crazy or a little element of gross, and you see how far you can get away with it. And if you get away with it and the person sticks with you, the next time, you introduce a little bit more crazy. So the point of Britain in my mind, is kind of this: we've sort of introduced likelittle elements of crazy slowly, and then politicians started to see how far they could get away with stuff, and it actually turns out to have been quite far. And then the whole situation has completely snowballed into an almost now Italian state.
[00:23:19.700] - Federica (Guest)
When I first moved here, the British people were scandalised because I think at the time it was...a Foreign secretary's husband had gone to a political conference and rented a porn movie and expensed it to the party, and she was forced to step down as a result. I mean, in Italy, we have politicians killing prostitutes on boats, and they get away with it and don't blink. But I remember she actually had the decency to step down because what her husband had done was not a correct thing to do, and it reflected badly upon her. And I was flabbergasted by the integrity and morality of the British people. Then after that, it's just been like a snowball effect downhill.
[00:24:02.320] - Oliver (Host)
When I was studying law, they were actually examining as part of the law course, political resignations. They looked at things from the '50s, where people genuinely did resign for things that had absolutely nothing to do with them. It was something within the department, but there was no doubt that there was absolutely no accusation of impropriety on the part of the minister, but they took responsibility.
[00:24:23.800] - Federica (Guest)
Yes, yes.
[00:24:24.020] - Oliver (Host)
I think they noted in this course that it has decreased. We don't live now in a particularly really shame-driven culture. I guess that must be even more the case in a state that was so Catholic - although actually Italy is still quite Catholic, right?
[00:24:37.480] - Federica (Guest)
Yeah, but because one of the interesting paradoxes of Italy that you highlighted earlier is exactly this. Italy is very much oriented around "la bella figura". La bella figura, the beautiful presentation of yourself, a beautiful figure that you make in front of other people, which doesn't necessarily have to be backed up - you just need to look, okay? So you just need to act well and present well. You don't necessarily have to be good, if that makes sense. With the idea of the Catholic faith, right? You present as a good Catholic, even if behind closed doors, you're cheating on your wife. Do you see what I mean? So it's a very moralistic culture on the surface, but then where people do what they need to do behind closed doors. So that's why Italy, I think, has this interesting dichotomy, even in art, between very religious art being actually very sensual or sexual. The two things for us can coexist quite peacefully because we have a beautiful exterior and then a more maybe corrupt interior. Or maybe corrupt is wrong, but more practical, I would say, interior. Inside, we do what we need to do. And then outside, we always look happy and perfectly dressed and polite and moralistic and Catholic.
[00:26:03.300] - Oliver (Host)
I suppose it's another form of doing what you need to do. No, but it's more doing what you need to do in the eyes of other people and acknowledging that if you are excluded from society in some way because you have...
[00:26:14.480] - Federica (Guest)
Acted outside of-
[00:26:16.510] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. Transgressed the moral boundaries, then you're punished, and therefore you need to do what you need to do. Well, I have one final question because I bribed you to come here with food, and the food is about to arrive.
[00:26:28.620] - Federica (Guest)
It's easy to bribe me with food.
[00:26:30.730] - Oliver (Host)
So my question is, do you feel proud to be Italian?
[00:26:35.480] - Federica (Guest)
Yes, very much so, because I think Italy is, and here now we get very sentimental, but I do think Italy is unique. I don't think any country in the world has contributed so much globally in so many different fields. Galileo Galilei, Leonardo, Enrico Fermi. We've had so many Italians that have contributed so much to the world, even though we're quite a small country, relatively speaking. We're 60 million people. We're just a tiny boot in Europe. But we've really punched above our weight in terms of culture, art, industrial advances, even, engineering advances - Marconi with the telephone. So really a lot of different fields have been touched positively by Italians. And for me, that's really quite special. But also it connects back to our government. Italians have to be really special to emerge beyond the difficulties imposed upon us. So maybe this...this need to have to be significantly better than the average in order to have a good life in Italy has promoted excellence.
[00:27:50.760] - Oliver (Host)
Well, Federica, given that you didn't know these questions and you didn't know anything I was going to talk about before you came, I will say to you again, as I said in the past, I know that you probably never will, but maybe you should go into politics. You could be the President of Italy.
[00:28:04.120] - Federica (Guest)
A more polite version of Giorgia Meloni.
[00:28:06.820] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. Well, thank you very much for coming.
[00:28:10.220] - Federica (Guest)
Thank you, Oliver.
[00:28:11.000] - Oliver (Host)
And I look forward to maybe having you back on again in the future.
[00:28:15.980] - Federica (Guest)
Why not?
[00:28:16.380] - Oliver (Host)
If after today's episode, you think, wow, I wish I had a level of English as good as Federica's, then you can sign up to English lessons with me at www.morethanalanglish.com/oliver. Thank you very much. Bye-bye!
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