E60: Has Mindfulness Lost Its Mind?

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[00:00:02.180] - Oliver (Host)

You know those periods in your life when nothing truly terrible happens, but everything begins to feel impossible. That was me this time last week. There was no single huge problem, just a constant stream of minor personal disasters going wrong until I felt like I couldn't take anymore. My mind wouldn't stop racing. I couldn't focus. Even the simplest task felt literally undoable. I felt that if I got one more piece of bad news, I would genuinely, finally, snap. Then, a few days later, I felt almost fine. The problems were still there, but I felt like I could overcome them, that I could manage the stress. I felt as if this period of intense anxiety, I suppose, had never happened. Does this happen to you when something can feel truly overwhelming in the moment and almost unimportant by comparison, just a week later.

[00:01:00.640] - Oliver (Host)

Welcome back to English and Beyond, the advanced version of the podcast where we try, we try, to explore unusual, interesting, and sometimes weird ideas. I'm Oliver, an English, Spanish, and Latin teacher from the UK. If there's anything you don't understand or you want to practise the most difficult vocabulary, have a look at our free transcript and flashcards available at morethanalanguage.com.

[00:01:27.640] - Oliver (Host)

When I told a few friends about how I was feeling during this period of stress, how I couldn't focus, couldn't stop overthinking, they all said similar things: just breathe, be present, focus on the good things, have you tried mindfulness? And I get it. It's all good advice in theory. Except most of us, and I include myself in this, most of us have no idea what mindfulness actually means, really. Nonetheless, mindfulness is everywhere now, on podcasts, in HR emails, even on cereal boxes. There's a snack company worth $25 billion with a page called Mindful Snacking, promising that if you choose slowly and mindfully enough, eating their biscuits can be a spiritual experience. Is that enlightenment now?

[00:02:19.160] - Oliver (Host)

But mindfulness wasn't invented to help us survive 12-hour work days or make burnout feel poetic and meaningful. It began as a Buddhist principle called Sati, frequency, awareness, attention, presence, a way of observing thought, not performing calmness. To my admittedly limited understanding, it wasn't meant to fix your stress, but instead was meant to make you see it. Then, of course, we did what we always do. We packaged it, we branded it, we monetised it. Meditation has become an app, and stillness has become a metric.

[00:02:57.120] - Oliver (Host)

And now, we treat mindfulness like a painkiller, and hoping it will soften our negative emotions instead of treating it like a mirror, reflecting our emotions back so we can see them more clearly. Some people, therefore, complain that they find mindfulness not to be relaxing at all against their expectations, but instead actually confronting. And that is intentional. The idea is that it makes you notice the chaos in your mind without actually fixing it. It's supposed to be about intentionally sitting with discomfort instead of ignoring that feeling. So, to be fair, maybe that's what the people telling me to just breathe were really getting at. Not escaping my feelings, not just running away from them, but noticing that I feel pretty rubbish and waiting until it's over, I guess. And in the end, after a few days, my perspective did shift. What had felt truly overwhelming a few days previously now feels more or less bearable. One or two things have gotten better, that's true, but most of the things have remained the same. Only my perspective has shifted, but my mind had moved on, whether thanks to mindfulness or not, reminding me how unreliable our sense of catastrophe usually is.

[00:04:11.600] - Oliver (Host)

In fact, I feel so differently now that I've ended up re-recording this introduction, this monologue, because I just felt too embarrassed about the previous draft. However, the following conversation with César is from when I felt a little bit more stressed still, and I think you can really tell. I hope you enjoy, or at least I hope you practise your English while listening to, our conversation about how mindfulness has lost its mind.

[00:04:40.160] - Oliver (Host)

So, César, I'm afraid that we're relying on you today to be our mindfulness guru because you're certainly someone who knows more about mindfulness and how it's lost its mind than I do.

[00:04:52.720] - César (Guest)

Do you think I'm a mindful person?

[00:04:55.640] - Oliver (Host)

Well, what does mindful even mean anymore? I mean, I've spoken in the introduction about what mindful means, but what does mindful mean for you? What does mindfulness mean for you?

[00:05:04.320] - César (Guest)

For me, being present and being mindful, basically for me, is like another improvement that I need to achieve in my life.

[00:05:20.480] - Oliver (Host)

Which is not very mindful, right?

[00:05:22.240] - César (Guest)

I literally have an app called Habits, and one of my habits is meditation. You You can see. Well, maybe you cannot see. Last week, I meditated three times. September was really bad. August was more or less okay, July. June was really good. Stretching, it's been 300 days without stretching, apparently. Skin routine, 120 days without doing my skin routine. Morning pages, over a year.

[00:05:55.220] - Oliver (Host)

I feel like this app is not working for you because you've actually not got a single icon that is green.

[00:05:59.740] - César (Guest)

No, the workout thing, I do it. I always do it. Every time I go to the gym, I click it, tick it off. Anyway, mindful, mindfulness. I think the mind is like a muscle we need to work out as well and stretch and train. For me, practising mindfulness, apart from meditating 10 minutes a day that I try to do every day, and I do it maybe three or four times a week, if I'm lucky, is trying to be on it, trying to be present. If you are cooking, for me, cooking is a very mindful exercise, for example, when you're cutting vegetables.

[00:06:43.960] - Oliver (Host)

But how mindful is it? Because I don't know that much about mindful, but to me, you seem like a typical victim of mindfulness as product.

[00:06:55.480] - César (Guest)

Yes, I am.

[00:06:56.260] - Oliver (Host)

Because, for example, cooking, you never cook mindfully. You just said to me that it's an important time for you to be mindful, but you never cook without having your mind on something else because you always listen to a podcast or you always listen to music, you always listen to something. You're never actually just-

[00:07:12.980] - César (Guest)

A mindful podcast.

[00:07:14.380] - Oliver (Host)

Say again, sorry?

[00:07:15.190] - César (Guest)

A podcast about mindfulness.

[00:07:16.480] - Oliver (Host)

Normally, yeah, a podcast about concentrating on what you're doing. And this, to me, seems the problem with mindfulness. The fact that you have a checklist of, Have I been mindful today? And clicking it, be like, Yes, I've been mindful, or, No, I haven't been mindful. I'm not criticising you personally. I'm not criticising anyone because anyone who pursues mindfulness is doing it because they want to feel better, no? But sometimes I feel like now the way that the mindfulness industry has grown up, it is actually literally achieving the opposite of what it set out to do.

[00:07:51.480] - César (Guest)

What you just said, industry. So mindfulness, I guess it used to be a philosophy, and now it's a commodity. So you buy an app, you go to very expensive, normally, and sometimes, luxurious mindfulness retreats, and you feel bad if you haven't -

[00:08:11.600] - Oliver (Host)

- been mindful.

[00:08:12.700] - César (Guest)

And been mindful. Yeah. So as anything in life, marketing can create a need and can make you feel bad if you don't follow that routine that you were expected to do on a daily basis. I agree that it can be counterproductive.

[00:08:34.960] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Since we're in agreement with that on that topic, on that point, why do you think it has become and continues to become such a huge industry, such a big topic for so many people? What is it that is driving this search for mindfulness amongst ordinary people?

[00:08:54.180] - César (Guest)

Yesterday, we were watching news in Spain, and they were saying that the number of people who are on sick leave now in Spain due to mental health issues has doubled in the last 10 years. And I think people are more unwell mentally. I don't think they're more unwell.

[00:09:14.440] - Oliver (Host)

But this is ironic because now there is so much focus on mental health. Is it the people are becoming more aware or is that focus on mental health counterproductive? Like, is, maybe people didn't regret not being mindful before they were aware that they should be mindful.

[00:09:31.920] - César (Guest)

I think the issue is that, obviously, we've never had it better in terms of technology.

[00:09:39.000] - Oliver (Host)

The ease of living in the West. Basically, technology has definitely made your life easier in terms of ordering things to your door, ordering anything you want, and it will arrive in a day. Constant instant gratification.

[00:09:58.000] - César (Guest)

Easier, but at the same time more complicated - social networks that keep us hooked on them for many hours per day. The stress of, for young people, for example, not being able to buy a property or even rent a house and leave their parents house. People worrying about the world, the presence of the third World War. Many different issues that make people anxious, and I understand why they feel anxious. I guess that's why this industry is so successful now, because people need to find solutions to their issues. And maybe therapy is very expensive and normally is not covered on the public health system.

[00:10:48.660] - Oliver (Host)

I do understand what you're saying, but I always find this argument that we are living in a uniquely difficult world really odd. Because, for example, you know, a few decades ago, during the Cold War, children in schools were routinely practising what you would do in the event of a nuclear strike. It's possible that there will be a nuclear war, but we don't live in a world in which we are routinely practising for that outcome. The anxiety must have been through the roof a few decades ago.

[00:11:22.390] - Oliver (Host)

But remember the Maslow Pyramid needs. If you got covered your housing, your food, your basic needs, the other needs at the top of the pyramid are more present. And maybe that's what is making us anxious, apart from the external geopolitical, geopolitical issues that...

[00:11:47.020] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose that makes me think my knee-jerk response to that is that maybe we need to tell ourselves just to get a grip in that respect. But maybe that is kind of what like, maybe that's the problem that mindfulness, in a way, is telling you to get that, to appreciate that.

[00:12:03.920] - César (Guest)

Actually, mindfulness is about accepting a lot and trying to change, being resilient and accept that you... What is the phrase that I like so much? Accept the things that you can't change.

[00:12:15.670] - Oliver (Host)

The serenity prayer? Like, accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference. The idea is that God will grant you these things. It's a prayer to God. So, God, give me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change.

[00:12:31.880] - César (Guest)

Yeah, it's an amazing phrase.

[00:12:34.560] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, well, I think... But is that mindfulness? That -

[00:12:38.860] - César (Guest)

I think it's part of the mindful practise.

[00:12:41.440] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah. Okay. I mean, can you be... This is maybe a stupid question, but can you be mindful while scrolling on Instagram? If you're there in the moment, you're not listening to music in the background, or is the fact that you are going between one, second, third piece of content?

[00:13:00.140] - César (Guest)

I think you cannot be. I've got these experiments that I experiment with myself. If I go to bed, I get my phone and I do this doomscrolling for 30 minutes, I keep myself awake while watching little videos, silly videos. One of them is sad, the other one is funny, the other one is controversial. I keep myself awake. If I get a book where I have to read, I have to think, I have to reflect on what I'm reading, I fall asleep within five minutes. It's not because the book is boring, it's just that I'm very mindful and it's tiring. You need to focus on it while being on Instagram and doing this doomscrolling, it's basically just dissociating, watching things and listening, but not really reflecting on anything, not really thinking too much. So mindful takes effort. That's what I mean.

[00:13:57.360] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I was thinking as a follow-up question to the thing about Instagram, can you be mindful when you're playing a video game? Because you're concentrating, but you're concentrating wholly on that video game. If it's a video game that is particularly narrative-driven, then it's almost like reading a book in terms of the story engaging you, you having to concentrate on that story, that thing. But I think no one would say that you can be mindful while playing a video game. Or most people talking about mindfulness would not associate it with the video game. But I don't really understand why you can't be in the moment enjoying it. It feels like to me that mindfulness has morphed into basically a broad judgement against many facets of modern life while actually being one of those problematic facets itself. Like basically saying, Oh, modern life is bad and we should be more spiritual while it's being commoditised, commodified, commoditised, while it's being made into a commodity and being pushed as its own product. There's the irony of that, no?

[00:15:02.880] - César (Guest)

Yeah, I think playing a video game or gambling in the casino is a very mindful practise from the point of view of being on the present and being focused. Because what you're doing is very important. You need to be very attentive. But at the same time, I guess the mindful practise also says that you should avoid too much stimulation. And being in the casino or playing a video game is all about being stimulated all the time with sounds, hooks, and things that keep you attentive. So the difficult thing about being mindful is, I guess, being present without having any stimulus. And keep(ing) yourself awake, because when you meditate, you tend to fall asleep as well if you are not doing it in the right way. But I agree 100% with you in the sense that it's been commodified, this idea of being present. But it's the same thing that it's being like a perfume. It's a commodity that, it's sold with the idea of being someone else, being at ease with yourself. Almost something spiritual rather than just a perfume that you put on your skin to smell better than you do normally.

[00:16:25.200] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose as well with mindfulness, people, I don't know, as always, we don't know what we're talking about, but I feel like mindfulness reminds me a lot of stoicism in the sense that it's about acknowledging that something bad is happening, that you are suffering in some way. And I don't think necessarily thinking that it's in your control to get rid of that suffering. Whereas the modern perspective or the generalised, commodified perspective of mindfulness is that it should stop you suffering, which is never going to happen. And so, I think that's contributed, no, to its commodification, where It promises that you will no longer suffer. And because it can't really do that, it then invites you to keep investing in it. So you know, instead of just meditating at home or being mindful at home or mindful while you're cooking, you feel, Oh, I should be going to a mindfulness retreat with experts to help me be mindful so that I am no longer suffering.

[00:17:39.900] - César (Guest)

But what you don't know is that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.

[00:17:48.220] - Oliver (Host)

Well, that is basically the idea of it, isn't it? That's the idea of stoicism. Maybe that was unexpected. Well, you were saying it as a joke, weren't you?

[00:18:01.790] - César (Guest)

Yeah, but that's what they say. I agree at some extent that it's true, because suffering is all about saying to yourself how bad your situation is. Sometimes venting is important, being negative is important. I think at the end of the day, all emotions, all feelings are valid and useful. The problem is when you get stuck with the same feeling. If something really bad happens to you, you have all the right to feel negative about it, complain, vent. But at some point, you need to go through the different stages to come out of it with help or without help.

[00:18:45.460] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose maybe I expect too much of people who are self-proclaimed mindful people, because quite a lot of people I know who are mindful, they actually are prone to outbursts of anger or insecurity or all sorts of feelings that I would have assumed are not very mindful feelings. But maybe, as you say, it's impossible to avoid those small elements of pain. And mindfulness comes from trying to, kind of, lower over time, allowing yourself to be annoyed in the moment. Then just to be like, actually, at the end of the day, this doesn't matter, which is not an immediate response. But I suppose that that is not very interesting or glamorous and therefore can't be sold on Instagram, basically, or it's more difficult. It's not as fun as selling something more interesting and more intense.

[00:19:47.500] - César (Guest)

In the same way that people who sell programmes to learn languages, it's easier to sell if you say, This is fun, quick. You're going to learn very quickly. I mean, easy than if you say, Well, actually, it's going to take you years to learn the language properly. What is the reality?

[00:20:05.340] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Well, César, thank you very much for talking to me about this topic, one of your favourite topics.

[00:20:10.340] - César (Guest)

No worries. Thank you.

[00:20:11.740] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Thank you very much, listener. Give us some mindful stars, a mindful subscribe.

[00:20:21.920] - César (Guest)

What was that? Keira Knightly face. Thank you.

[00:20:26.240] - Oliver (Host)

Thank you very much for listening. See you next time.

[00:20:30.420] - César (Guest)

You okay?