E57: Perfectly Miserable: The Culture of Optimisation

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[00:00:02.200] - Oliver (Host)

For centuries, people have tried to answer the question of how to live well. The Greeks spoke of eudaimonia, human flourishing, a life of virtue and balance. The Romans talked about discipline, moderation, and mens sana in corpore sano, a healthy mind in a healthy body. Philosophy, religion, and culture all offered their own paths to the good life. But today, the language has shifted. We don't just talk about living well, we talk about optimisation, about "hacking" our bodies and minds so that every hour of sleep, every meal, every workout is tracked and fine-tuned. Now, I don't mean simply trying to live healthily. I mean the language of efficiency, of data, of science applied to everyday life. People aren't just eating better, they're tracking their macros. They're not just going to bed earlier, they're analysing their sleep cycles, their heart rate, and their recovery time through watches and apps. Some even reengineer their routines minute by minute, convinced that if you can adjust just one more variable, life itself can be improved, maximised, perfected. But that raises some uncomfortable questions. First of all, what does perfect even mean? Is it being slimmer, faster, stronger? Is it about extending our lives so we don't age?

[00:01:29.560] - Oliver (Host)

Or is about cramming more productivity into the years we already have? And who is this lifestyle really for? For athletes, for billionaires, or for ordinary people who just don't want to feel tired all the time? Still, the bigger dilemma remains: how far is too far? Is sleeping in separate bedrooms a sign of failure in a marriage or just common sense if it gives you better rest? Is clean eating a path to health or the beginning of an obsession that takes the joy out of food completely? And when does an interest in self-improvement turn into a lifelong homework assignment where you are never quite good enough?

[00:02:08.620] - Oliver (Host)

Today, we're looking at the culture of optimisation. Welcome back then to English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I'm an English, Spanish, and Latin teacher from the UK. And as always, you'll find a free transcript and vocabulary flashcards for this episode at www.morethanlanguage.com. So you can follow along, learn new expressions, and optimise your English. Coming up now is the conversation I've had with César about this topic. Thanks for listening.

[00:02:38.740] - Oliver (Host)

So, César, how are you?

[00:02:40.880] - César (Guest)

I'm good.

[00:02:41.520] - Oliver (Host)

You're wearing a hat.

[00:02:42.380] - César (Guest)

Yeah, I want to apologise. I don't know why, but my mum installed (instilled) in me the fact that if you wear a cap indoors, basically, that's like, impolite. It's bad manners. So I'm sorry, but my hair is getting out of hand. I need to go to the hairdresser.

[00:03:03.980] - Oliver (Host)

Well, this is a terrible segue actually into the topic that we're going to talk about today, which is optimisation of your life. Which is actually a topic that you have suggested. Tell us, César, why you suggested it.

[00:03:16.300] - César (Guest)

Just because I was watching the telly last night. I know you hate when I say telly or brolly.

[00:03:24.980] - Oliver (Host)

Brolly is worse than telly. Telly is fine, but brolly, I dislike it. It's true.

[00:03:30.000] - César (Guest)

I was watching the television and they were talking about biohacking and how rich people, especially, were obsessed with optimising their lives. You see like Apple Watch and other devices to optimise their sleep, their fitness activity.

[00:03:49.680] - Oliver (Host)

And you thought, I need to get in on that. I want to be one of these rich billionaires.

[00:03:54.580] - César (Guest)

I'm not rich, but I'm trying to optimise my sleep. Like my dad bought us this Apple Watch thingy. Every morning, the first thing I do, I don't check my phone anymore. I check how many hours I have slept.

[00:04:11.460] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I mean, it's actually... I mean, so one of my best friends, he told me that he is currently sleep-divorced from his partner. They sleep in separate beds. And he does this basically because if he doesn't, then he doesn't sleep well enough. And his job requires him to be very alert, very on the ball, and always present, and always very... I hate that phrase, always present, always mindful. No, always there and ready to respond on a second's notice. And so, yeah, basically, at the moment, he's just sleeping in a separate bedroom because he wants to optimise his sleep. What do you think about that? How far should we go in the name of optimisation? Because for some people, sleeping in a separate bed from your partner would constitute a kind of marital failure. For me, I don't think so at all. For me, I think it's actually very sensible. But some people who are maybe a little bit more emotional, might think, actually, that's not something, you would draw the line before that.

[00:05:23.520] - César (Guest)

It's the end of a relationship. No, my grandparents have slept apart.

[00:05:29.460] - Oliver (Host)

But did they -

[00:05:30.000] - César (Guest)

When they were 90.

[00:05:30.960] - Oliver (Host)

Did they have a relationship?

[00:05:36.100] - César (Guest)

Yeah. No, I think it's quite common when people grow older or get older to sleep in different beds, even in different bedrooms. If they have enough space in their flat, because that's another thing. What do I think of that? Or how far one should go to have an optimised lifestyle? I think everyone is looking for a healthy lifestyle. And that involves diet, a healthy diet.

[00:06:06.720] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, you say everyone, but I'm sorry to cut you off so early, but do you really think that's true, that everyone is looking to optimise their lifestyle?

[00:06:13.450] - César (Guest)

Most people as an adult, you want to be healthy.

[00:06:16.440] - Oliver (Host)

Do you think that's true, though? Most people as an adult, most people as an adult are looking to optimise their life.

[00:06:23.260] - César (Guest)

Not optimise, but be healthy. I think once you turn 30, you start having some health issues and you're like, Okay, maybe it's the time to start taking care of my health more seriously.

[00:06:35.420] - Oliver (Host)

I think you're being very optimistic, but I think part of the reason that you think that is because the people that you know are basically people in their 30s, hardly any of whom have children. But if you've got a child, then I think that lots of people are just trying to get by, aren't they? They're not thinking about, How can I optimise my diet to make sure I have all the macro, micronutrients that I need? I'm sure that lots of people are doing it, but I think, isn't it supposedly the mark of a midlife crisis or an affair when your husband or wife who has shown no interest in this previously suddenly is like going to the gym and tracking their diet and everything, because to show a sudden interest in optimisation shows a shift in priority.

[00:07:22.570] - César (Guest)

I think the priority comes because ageing, the process, pushes you to do that. Like, in my case, I'm I'm not a crazy person about optimising every single bit of my life, but since I turned 30, I('ve) had many different issues with my lower back, especially where I've been in bed for one week and recovering from that injury for months. I got something called non-alcoholic fatty liver, where I have to take care of my diet. I have to drink as little as possible, I have to lose weight. So these different things add up and you want to have the healthiest lifestyle you can get by with. But I'm not thinking about macronutrients all the time, but I'm like, when I was 20, I was thinking, Oh, I'm not going to have a pizza again because yesterday I had a burger. Now I've been more sensible with my decisions.

[00:08:18.480] - Oliver (Host)

But you were saying that when you were 20s, in your 20s, you were-

[00:08:22.230] - César (Guest)

I wasn't thinking as much about my lifestyle or about, Oh, I should sleep more tonight because I didn't sleep properly the previous days. It was more like, I can get by, I can eat whatever I want and sleep as little as possible.

[00:08:38.950] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, to me, part of the reason that you search to optimise your life is because you are the person who is quite perfectionist. I think both of us have quite black and white thinking about lots of different things. I only realise how black and white my thinking is when someone tells me that it seems incredibly black and white to them. And I think you take ever granted that other people are doing the same as you, but I don't think that other people are.

[00:09:03.060] - César (Guest)

Sorry, I need to stand up. My watch just said, I need to stand up for one minute. Do you mind?

[00:09:09.020] - Oliver (Host)

But I think you're quite a perfectionist, and I think you've got quite black and white thinking like I do and like I am. I think you think a lot about self-improvement, what constitutes success, what constitutes improvement and quality in itself.

[00:09:28.340] - César (Guest)

It's really frustrating because you never achieve what you set out for yourself, right?

[00:09:32.510] - Oliver (Host)

Obviously. But I don't think that is a mentality that everybody has. And I think actually it's not even necessarily a good mentality to have because I think that this kind of like endless self-improvement, endless optimisation can be really counterproductive because I think it becomes quite easily, it becomes quite obsessive. So for example, you can end up with an eating disorder, not anorexia or eating excessively, but instead, orthorexia, like the obsession of eating eating totally correctly. It's like clean eating, recording everything you eat and making sure you're getting all of your nutrients, where I think most people, even if it's technically optimised for you, it has negative psychological elements that make it counterproductive. I suppose the question is, if you don't experience this counterproductive element, if you don't actually find it a burden to eat perfectly all the time, then, then is it really a problem? But I really don't think it's as common as you think it is. I think it's because of the people that you are friends with that you think that this interest in being perfect or trying to be perfect exists. But there's this example of this man who is very famous now because he's always in the newspaper, because he's obsessed with trying to be young, Bryan Johnson, who I think it got to the point that he was having blood transfers, blood transfusions from his son to him to replenish his body. And when you look at pictures of it, maybe he is looking incredible. I don't know. He talks all the time about all his biological markers being much younger than he is. But most people looking at that optimisation, I think are, like - this is, this has just gone too far. Also because he looks a bit odd because of everything he's doing. So what do you think about someone like that?

[00:11:30.580] - César (Guest)

I think that's going too far. Would you sign, if you could live until the age of 200, would you sign it?

[00:11:40.300] - Oliver (Host)

I suppose it would depend on how long other people lived and also it would depend on the quality of life that you had. I mean, if I'm going to progress normally to the age of 80 and then live like an 80-year-old for another 120 years, that doesn't appeal to me too much. If I lived like a 40-year-old for 150 years and then went off a cliff for another 30 or whatever, then that would be okay.

[00:12:08.380] - César (Guest)

I think this case you mentioned is basically the eccentricity of a millionaire, a billionaire, I don't know. But who knows that might open the door for future treatments or future strategies to keep people alive for longer in a better state.

[00:12:26.380] - Oliver (Host)

I think that is how he views it. That he's not just doing it for himself. But there was also that article, wasn't there? Or there was also that conversation there. Who was it? Was it Putin and President Xi, the President of China, about the potential to live forever?

[00:12:41.560] - César (Guest)

Yeah. Or, there were some secret files or something. I read something, but I can't really remember what it was about. But yeah, I know what you mean.

[00:12:49.620] - Oliver (Host)

But I know that there's a very famous gay billionaire who apparently has blood transfusions from young people all the time.

[00:12:58.490] - César (Guest)

Like Dracula.

[00:13:00.000] - Oliver (Host)

Well, that is what people say, that it is a bit like Dracula. And I guess that is an optimisation, no? And maybe you checking your steps and your hours sleep on your watch. Maybe it's a drop in the ocean. That's a bit of a waste of time. Maybe you should be looking into some blood transfusions. I don't know. Maybe there's a budget version of that. Where would you draw the line? As someone who is interested in optimisation, where do you draw the line? You.

[00:13:30.980] - César (Guest)

I think doing these transfusions couldn't be beneficial to my mental health.

[00:13:41.880] - Oliver (Host)

Why?

[00:13:44.700] - César (Guest)

Well, because, like...

[00:13:46.040] - Oliver (Host)

You might love it because every time you get a transfusion, you might feel physically rejuvenated.

[00:13:55.520] - César (Guest)

I don't know. I don't think it's that effective in the first place.

[00:14:00.000] - Oliver (Host)

If it were, would you do it?

[00:14:02.020] - César (Guest)

Probably, yes. If I had the money -

[00:14:05.680] - Oliver (Host)

So your red line is not that much of a red line.

[00:14:07.760] - César (Guest)

What is the red line? I don't know because I don't have access to these treatments. I don't think I will ever have access to this. Maybe.

[00:14:19.340] - Oliver (Host)

Okay.

[00:14:19.830] - César (Guest)

I'm just doing what I can, which is taking my... I feel like I'm being portrayed or portrayed as someone who's like...

[00:14:27.650] - Oliver (Host)

Portrayed.

[00:14:28.220] - César (Guest)

Portrayed as someone One who's obsessed with liv(ing) longer. I just want to heal my little condition.

[00:14:38.060] - Oliver (Host)

I think you're sweating out of this fear.

[00:14:40.600] - César (Guest)

Oh, it's bloody hot.

[00:14:40.600] - Oliver (Host)

You're being interrogated.

[00:14:44.040] - César (Guest)

Yeah. I think the cap is making my body hotter. How does my hair look?

[00:14:51.160] - Oliver (Host)

Optimised.

[00:14:51.860] - César (Guest)

Optimised, okay.

[00:14:52.580] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, optimal.

[00:14:54.560] - César (Guest)

But I'm talking to someone who takes 200 pills a day. Do you have anything to say about that?

[00:15:00.840] - Oliver (Host)

Mine are medications.

[00:15:02.200] - César (Guest)

No, I'm talking about the vitamins. You've got so many pills.

[00:15:07.780] - Oliver (Host)

I actually have loads more arriving in the post. I only have at the moment, vitamin D, which is a hangover from being British, and vitamin C.

[00:15:14.440] - César (Guest)

But at some point, you were having 10 different vitamins.

[00:15:18.040] - Oliver (Host)

I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:15:19.080] - César (Guest)

The little bag you open and they were all together.

[00:15:22.280] - Oliver (Host)

It was like... Yeah, well, that was recommended by my personal trainer in London. It was like a joint care thing because my shoulders were bad. I mean, my shoulders are still bad. They're not helped by filming these episodes because you have your microphone that is on an arm and I'm leaning over.

[00:15:39.100] - César (Guest)

Sometimes I feel like I live with Gwyneth Paltrow.

[00:15:43.700] - Oliver (Host)

You're turning the tables on me, basically, no?

[00:15:46.460] - César (Guest)

Yeah.

[00:15:46.940] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Well, as the person in control of the podcast, I think we'll end it there then.

[00:15:52.500] - César (Guest)

Okay. Let's optimise something. Now we're done.

[00:15:57.460] - Oliver (Host)

What do you mean?

[00:15:59.120] - César (Guest)

Now, after doing this, something like have an optimised lunch or something.

[00:16:05.300] - Oliver (Host)

Well, do you know, for people who are... I actually think we're not very good at optimising things because for example, that kind of thing, we might approximately count calories, but we're not very good with actually checking whether we have a particularly healthy diet. It's not a bad diet, but it's not optimised. Something I wanted to talk about that we haven't talked about is the fact that I would love to be someone who lives an optimised lifestyle, but I think I'm just too lazy.

[00:16:36.660] - César (Guest)

Yeah, you need consistency.

[00:16:39.980] - Oliver (Host)

It's like an everyday thing.

[00:16:41.480] - César (Guest)

You need very consistent.

[00:16:43.600] - Oliver (Host)

I just have such strong FOMO that I can feel very virtuous if I haven't drunk anything for a week. But then I'm like, But I want to live. I want to go out. I want to meet people. I don't want to just exist. I want to live. So I get a glass of red wine. The optimisation is gone.

[00:17:00.600] - César (Guest)

Fair enough.

[00:17:01.200] - Oliver (Host)

Although actually with the last few minutes, that takes us to the other problem of optimisation, which is if you trust the Daily Mail, one of the most famous British newspapers, it's both optimal to have a glass of red wine and also never to drink red wine.

[00:17:14.120] - César (Guest)

Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Everything is not healthy and healthy at the same time, potentially.

[00:17:19.600] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Well, I can see that I've made you very uncomfortable in this episode, César, so it's time for us to go.

[00:17:23.760] - César (Guest)

I'm okay. I'm just hot.

[00:17:26.080] - Oliver (Host)

Okay. Sweating under pressure. Well, thank you very much, this time, for talking to me about this topic.

[00:17:32.550] - César (Guest)

Thank you.

[00:17:33.070] - Oliver (Host)

And until next time.

[00:17:34.610] - César (Guest)

Bye.

[00:17:35.190] - Oliver (Host)

Bye-bye.