Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:
[00:00:00.000] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. This episode, as always, has a transcript available for it online, available at www.morethanalanguage.com. And this may be an episode where you need it because we're going to be talking about a lot of quite unusual concepts with very specific vocabulary. And that's because I have a special guest with me, a bit of an expert on the occult, my friend Charlie. Charlie, I'm going to begin the podcast, as always, by giving a little speech, and then we will have a chat after that. Of course, Charlie, during the speech, you can interrupt me if you like, it's just highly unusual.
[00:00:52.370] - Charlie (Guest)
Okay, well, that's clear.
[00:00:54.180] - Oliver (Host)
Well, excellent. So now let's turn to the material of the episode, all about superstitions.
[00:01:02.810] - Oliver (Host)
Sometimes I'm told that I might be a little bit mad. Mad can mean, of course, angry, furious, as in the phrase, "My mum is mad with me because I broke her favourite vase". But it also means crazy, nuts, insane, etc. My mother used to tell me frequently that I was utterly mad, or sometimes mad as a hatter, an expression from which we get the Alice in Wonderland character, The Mad Hatter. Part of the reason for this alleged madness is the collection of habits that I picked up during my childhood. I think all children do some odd things during childhood, and I'm actually going to ask you, listener, to email me some of your own childhood insanities. You can send them through to me at oliver@morethanalanguage.com.
[00:01:53.340] - Oliver (Host)
Some of the habits I'm going to discuss today are obviously superstitious. Others might appear a little more obsessive-compulsive in nature. But I think that there's probably quite often a connection between these in reality. So what exactly are superstitions? They're defined by Oxford's Learning Dictionary as the belief that particular events happen in a way that cannot be explained by reason or science, the belief that particular events bring good or bad luck.
[00:02:24.040] - Oliver (Host)
The funny thing about superstitions is that even though I don't really believe in them, I still find myself avoiding certain actions because of the potential bad luck. For example, it's often said that you shouldn't open an umbrella inside the house because it will cause bad fortune to rain down upon your household. I don't believe that that's true, but I do consciously and carefully wait until I'm outside to open my umbrella. Similarly, if I broke a mirror, apparently leading to seven years' bad luck, I would freeze with a slightly more profound horror than if I simply smashed a glass. I suppose that part of the reason for this is that deep down, I worry that unlucky superstitions are self-prophesying [mispronounced]. That is, they can make themselves become true. It might not be clear what I mean by that.
[00:03:19.690] - Oliver (Host)
Imagine a situation where you are worried that something bad will happen. Like, for example, you're going to fail an exam on a certain day. You keep thinking; it's been occupying your anxious mind for weeks. It preys on your mind, we can say. And then, the day of the exam arrives, you're walking to the test centre deep in thought about what you're going to be asked, and suddenly, a black cat crosses your path in front of you.
[00:03:47.760] - Oliver (Host)
You shudder in horror and try to dart out of its way. But as you do so, you end up walking under a ladder balanced dangerously against the wall. You can't quite believe your bad luck, but as you walk into the exam hall, you glance down at the date as you turn off your phone and you notice, it's Friday the 13th.
[00:04:07.040] - Oliver (Host)
You know, as a well-informed individual, that all three of these events are considered unlucky. You try to brush off the thought, to ignore it, but it's still there, bothering you, a niggling feeling in the back of your mind. Have I just ruined my exam with this bad luck? Then you sit down with the exam paper in front of you, and your anxious, paranoid mind is filled with images of black cats, and precarious ladders, and unfortunate exam scheduling. You can't concentrate on the exam at all. You're sure that the universe has conspired against you to make sure you fail this exam. And you do, in fact, fail because your racing mind hasn't allowed you to even read the questions. Of course, these bad omens haven't actually caused your bad luck, but your suggestibility, your belief that they could have, might have impacted you enough to cause the failure.
[00:05:03.580] - Oliver (Host)
This may be the explanation for why I do pause when I notice something superstitious, even when I don't really believe it. This is something that César would call 'magical thinking'. I worry that if I don't carry out certain acts in a certain way, there will be a corresponding negative result. Every time César flies in a plane without me, for example, we go through a little choreographed exchange by phone or by text. I feel a strong compulsion, a strong need, to tell him to try not to die in a plane crash, and he promises me that he'll make his best efforts not to, and I tell him I love him. Now, since César is not even in the cockpit, the control centre of the plane, I obviously don't seriously believe that if I fail to tell César to try not to die, that God will bring down a plane full of people to punish my negligence. Nevertheless, I will sit and worry about him more than if I do manage to get this message through to him. And I accept that is totally insane, but I generally do it anyway, just in case. I think that, in reality, I don't believe that this exchange prevents his plane from crashing, but the consequences of his plane going down would be so catastrophic for me emotionally that this short conversation helps to moderate my feelings on the topic when he flies without me.
[00:06:27.220] - Oliver (Host)
Sometimes, superstitions are just quite sensible and don't necessarily negatively impact you. For example, one of the most famous superstitions in the UK is that you shouldn't walk underneath a ladder, as I referenced earlier. But when would you ever want to do that by choice anyway? It seems obviously a choice of self-preservation to avoid that foolishness. And then, some superstitions are actually actively quite positive and pleasant, and have a community or family aspect. For example, I enthusiastically take part in two superstitions that relate to the beginning of the year, and both promise you good luck for the year to come. César and I, wherever we are during the start of the year, make sure that we take part in two New Year's traditions, a Scottish one and a Spanish one. The latter is widespread across Spain. You make sure that you have twelve grapes prepared. When the clock strikes midnight, you eat one grape for each of the twelve chimes of the clock. With a Scottish tradition, my mum insists that we complete her version of something called First Foot. The idea is that the first person to cross the threshold, the front door, of the house after midnight, should bring certain gifts to guarantee success and prosperity for the household for the year ahead.
[00:07:45.240] - Oliver (Host)
You need to bring something to keep the household warm, fed, and watered. That means something to feed the people living there, something for them to drink, and something to heat the house itself. Traditionally, that would be something like short bread, Scotch and coal, but my mum likes to be flexible. She's not a fan of Scotch, so we generally use champagne, for example. As this person crosses the threshold, they say, "lang may yer lum lang reek", a Scots expression, literally meaning, "Long may your chimney smoke", and in fact, a wish that the household you're crossing into should be safe and prosperous. So these are some nice, positive superstitions. And the fact that they're followed by large national groups means that you feel like you're part of a bigger movement. It helps to connect you to the community around you and helps you to feel connected even when you're far from home, as in the case of my mum or César. I suppose, though, the superstitions are a little bit like religions and cults. When loads of people do them, like the grapes and the Scottish gifts, they're considered more normal and not totally insane. When very few people carry out a superstition, some people might consider them a little more eccentric, perhaps even a bit crazy, like a cult member.
[00:09:01.800] - Oliver (Host)
One example superstition, that I created all by myself, that is totally insane, relates to food, and specifically food waste. Now, I know this is highly unusual behaviour, but it really was quite compulsive when I was growing up. Essentially, I guess it came from the fact that my parents always told me off for wasting food, which is very normal. My dad used to tell me so often that he had been a war baby and that waste had been totally unacceptable in his household when he was very little, and as a result, I think I developed some guilt towards food waste. So far, so normal. This feeling of guilt was obviously my parents' intention in telling me this. However, what was less normal was the fact that this guilt turned into some sort of emotional burden. If I wasted food, I did something very odd. Let's say I had cut a peach into slices. As I'm walking out the kitchen to settle in front of the TV with my tasty snack, I accidentally drop one on the floor. Sometimes I would just pick it up and eat it, but if it looked too dirty, I would throw it away.
[00:10:09.340] - Oliver (Host)
However, I would get worried that that slice of peach would get lonely being thrown away by itself in the bin. I therefore had two options, depending on the food stuff in question...(laughs)
[00:10:20.440] - Charlie (Guest)
I did know this, actually, but I'd forgotten about it.
[00:10:25.540] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, hmm...If it could be broken in two, I would do that so that there were two little peach buddies in the bin. If not, I would have to choose another piece of the same food to arbitrarily, to randomly, throw away, all in the name of keeping the food from getting lonely. Even weirder, I would sometimes tell myself that that little slice's fate had been to be dropped (laughs again). I mean, this is true. It wanted not to be eaten, unlike all the other peach slices, which in fact wanted to end up in my stomach.
[00:11:02.360] - Oliver (Host)
Now, in fear that I'm going to carry on and get myself locked up in an old-fashioned insane asylum, this might be a good time to turn to my guest, Charlie. Charlie studied at university with me and is the person I know with the best knowledge of all things superstitious, wiccan, occult, etc. So Charlie, firstly, based on what you've heard so far, do you think I'm superstitious or insane?
[00:11:29.530] - Charlie (Guest)
Well, if you say that you're not superstitious, then I think that means that you aren't because you've provided the rationale of how you know that the plane won't really crash if you don't stick to this particular ritual with César...
[00:11:45.260] - Oliver (Host)
So does that just leave-
[00:11:47.210] - Charlie (Guest)
Insanity, yes, I think perhaps it does. Because I think that a truly superstitious person does believe more in a cause and effect between their actions and something that many people say they actually cannot control. And you don't really believe in that apart from perhaps in some small instinctive way. I would hesitate to call you superstitious, but I might also not be that confident in deciding you were insane either.
[00:12:18.460] - Oliver (Host)
Actually on this topic, Charlie, something that I've never really had totally clear is how much do you believe in the tarot cards, in magic? I know that you have got some Wiccan traditions or habits, and there are things back in Devon where you're from that have a ghostly attribute to them, that you partake in. So, are you a believer?
[00:12:42.960] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, I think for the most part. I think it's probably unhealthy to let these things rule your life and govern your every decision. I don't think you should dwell on them too much.
[00:12:54.740] - Oliver (Host)
Can I ask you why you think that that's the case? Because if it is true and it is an accurate way of predicting the future, why not rely on it entirely?
[00:13:06.050] - Charlie (Guest)
Because it's only one force of many among other people in your life, your own free will. It's like the tide when you're sailing a boat, but you also have the wind and you also have the craft itself. You have your own skill or lack thereof. So, I think it can indicate some of the forces at play, perhaps, but it isn't completely foolproof. It isn't 100% accurate. Otherwise, it would have been proven already. So I have observed in my life that I have seen accuracy beyond chance and beyond something that you could guess, but not to the point where you would put your whole faith in it because there's lots of other things that have an effect on us.
[00:13:47.730] - Oliver (Host)
When you say that you've seen something that beyond coincidence, beyond chance, has it predicted something accurately, I guess?
[00:13:54.900] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, I think so. But you can... Oh, yeah, go on.
[00:13:59.880] - Oliver (Host)
Is there one particular method that stands out to you as better than others? For example, is tarot that kind of link to the paranormal?
[00:14:09.260] - Charlie (Guest)
Different types of divination - which is different types of fortune telling or trying to gain knowledge that you otherwise wouldn't have - they are quite different. For instance, astrology relies on something observable in nature. There are only 12 zodiac signs, but everyone has a unique birth chart that's much more complicated than that.
[00:14:30.530] - Oliver (Host)
Depending on the time you were born.
[00:14:32.060] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, exactly. And the place. I think the fact that you could look at the sky and think about if you believe in God or a deity and creation, you see perhaps the idea of intelligent design or a system that might be reassuring and might not be too offensive to people's religious sensibilities, even though most scripture, at least in Abrahamic religions, that is Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, forbid fortune telling. But there's a great tradition of astrology in all of those faiths and countries. So I don't think people mind astrology because I think they think, well, God put the stars and the planets in place. And if there are signs for us there, then so be it. They must be for a reason. Whereas tarot is much more individualised and much more random. And I think it's easy for people to think of that as something I think, perhaps a little bit more spooky or dark in a way, because it's completely personal to you and it's more tactile as an experience than just thinking about what might be told in the heavens. There's any number of other divinatory arts, so they're all quite different, and it's not for me to say which is more or less accurate.
[00:15:52.350] - Charlie (Guest)
I think anyone can learn the tarot, though. You could learn it with no belief in anything otherworldly or supernatural, but you could still find it an interesting way to facilitate a conversation or to examine your own decisions or prejudices.
[00:16:09.640] - Oliver (Host)
According to the cards that come up.
[00:16:11.530] - Charlie (Guest)
Exactly.
[00:16:11.920] - Oliver (Host)
It becomes almost like a, you know, like a-
[00:16:16.330] - Charlie (Guest)
Therapeutic.
[00:16:16.420] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I was going to say something about therapy, right? That these are some suggestions I will make to you via the cards, and then we'll have a conversation about how that relates to your life. You said something that I thought was really interesting before, where you said that it has an element of reassurance to it, well, religions have an element of reassurance? I thought it was interesting that maybe when you linked that to the stars and looking up at the sky with the astrology, that reassurance comes from the fact that we are so small and the world is so big and that we ultimately don't matter that much. And religion might have that same calming effect, that there's something out there that's bigger. Whereas with tarot, because as you say, it's so individualised, it feels like the forces of good or evil are spiralling down on you in that moment.
[00:17:00.860] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, true. That's quite well observed, I think. Yes, in a tarot reading, you are very much the centre of what is going on. It maybe puts people on the spot a little bit more, which might make it seem like a surprising choice for entertainment at an office Christmas party or similar. But people are nervous, either because they fully believe or they are nervous that some small part of them might believe enough for them to be too impressionable or as you've already explained about yourself. But I always say to those people that, well, there are 78 tarot cards and only two or three of them describe a completely unforeseen situation.
[00:17:42.530] - Oliver (Host)
I thought you were going to say something like two or three describe complete death, inevitable disaster. And then these are the three that you've got.
[00:17:53.130] - Charlie (Guest)
Well, it could be, but my next comment about that would actually just be that it describes the path that you're currently on rather than an inevitability.
[00:18:05.420] - Oliver (Host)
But I don't find that that reassuring. Let's say, for example, the three cards you pull are something like, "flying object, king or Caesar -
[00:18:14.790] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes.
[00:18:15.800] - Oliver (Host)
Fiery destruction or something." Then at that point, obviously, I'm going to forbid César from getting on any plane. Although the next plane that he will be getting on is one that we're all going to be on.
[00:18:26.140] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, that's the plan. We'll at least be going down together.
[00:18:31.740] - Oliver (Host)
Lovely. Okay.
[00:18:33.610] - Charlie (Guest)
Well, was there ever a time when you didn't do the superstitious thing that you felt you ought to do, whether that's an established traditional superstition or a personal, almost OCD-adjacent practice, and then something went wrong and it reinforced your thinking? Or are you so meticulous and careful that you, in fact, have never broken your own rules?
[00:18:59.980] - Oliver (Host)
That is a really interesting question, actually. I've got a couple of different answers to it. Firstly, with regard to the more established shared superstitions, not so much that someone hasn't done it, but interestingly, as we've grown up, the household has become broader. Basically, only one person in the family will do first foot. In an ideal world, that person would be tall, dark, and handsome.
[00:19:23.940] - Charlie (Guest)
I don't know- In an ideal world, they would be a stranger, wouldn't they? From another household altogether.
[00:19:28.270] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly, exactly. But my mum doesn't like to risk it with a stranger.
[00:19:32.530] - Charlie (Guest)
No, indeed.
[00:19:34.320] - Oliver (Host)
Ideally for her, and I don't even know if it's a Scottish tradition, but they should be tall, dark, and handsome. But my mum has decided who she feels brings the best luck to the whole household.
[00:19:45.780] - Charlie (Guest)
It's you?
[00:19:46.310] - Oliver (Host)
No, it's not. It's my little brother who is taller than me, possibly darker. The jury is out on whether he's more handsome. But my mum, I think, prefers him to do it. She would never dream of letting my sister and her husband do it. Even though in my sister's household now he does do it for her. But my mum, even though I don't think she could provide real evidence for why she thinks my little brother does it the best, I think she feels most comfortable with him because he's much more of an alpha male than I am. He takes a responsibility for what goes right or wrong. That's kind of an answer to the first part of the question.
[00:20:25.090] - Charlie (Guest)
There's probably a dissertation in there because it's probably not that unusual. "First-footing as a gendered concept."
[00:20:33.420] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. Then the second thing is with regard to my own personal superstitions, like the plane thing for César. I think, luckily for me, If I have transgressed against the natural order in some way by forgetting to do the exchange or not throwing away my peaches and pears, whatever. Luckily, I believe overriding all of it is the supreme power of "touching wood". I think I definitely use it in a really disturbing way, because if I think something that I would consider a mean thing to think, I instinctively touch wood, almost as a a check on myself to say, "That is not actually a good thing what you've just done or thought there." And which is actually probably quite profoundly disturbing, really.
[00:21:27.310] - Charlie (Guest)
It seems quite generous to try and train yourself out of thinking harsh and negative thoughts about other people. Many wouldn't bother at all.
[00:21:37.860] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, this is insane. No one is going to listen to any more episodes of this podcast again.
[00:21:42.090] - Charlie (Guest)
I don't know. But-
[00:21:43.090] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, no-
[00:21:43.490] - Charlie (Guest)
I think you don't say touchwood aloud. My housemate who you know well-ish and who shares your Sun Sign and who I believe is similar to you in a lot of ways.
[00:21:55.210] - Oliver (Host)
And is coming on the next flight.
[00:21:56.720] - Charlie (Guest)
And is coming on the next flight, whether we make it to the end of the flight or not, we'll all find out - or the listeners will find out, we may never be aware.
[00:22:05.480] - Oliver (Host)
I'll have to record a goodbye message. "If you're hearing this, I didn't make it."
[00:22:15.540] - Charlie (Guest)
I think she is just like you insofar as she doesn't believe in anything spooky or otherworldly, but has a lot of superstitious behaviours. And recently, scolded me. She told me off and said that I was wrong, because "touchwood", it involves a verbal utterance. You have to say "touchwood". And I didn't realise that, and it sounds like you don't either. But of course, these things are all very individualised.
[00:22:43.810] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I think, regardless of the reality, like my mum with First Foot, ultimately you do have to mould it to yourself, don't you? I think that I touchwood so often that it would be impractical.
[00:22:57.580] - Charlie (Guest)
I think the most disruptive that I do is to salute a magpie, which also has an optional spoken version. And that's fine a lot of the time, unless you're with someone that you perhaps don't know very well, in which case they can find it confusing because it's a common superstition, but it's not so common that people immediately know what you're doing.
[00:23:20.310] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I wouldn't have known.
[00:23:21.970] - Charlie (Guest)
Right. And it can be, well, the poem that most people know goes "one for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy, five for silver, six for gold, and seven for a secret never to be told". And the number of magpies indicates what is coming your way. The one that you don't want is sorrow, which is a single magpie. When you see a single magpie, you would salute it and you might say something like, "Good morning, captain."
[00:23:47.680] - Oliver (Host)
In order to avoid the bad luck.
[00:23:50.110] - Charlie (Guest)
In order to avoid the bad luck. But, you know, when you're driving or something, it's not good to take your hand off the wheel and salute a magpie, or whatever it might be.
[00:23:58.430] - Oliver (Host)
But needs must.
[00:24:00.130] - Charlie (Guest)
Quite. But I have... Sometimes I feel like the salute isn't really powerful enough, particularly if the magpie is very persistent, really determined to ruin your day. And there was a day in my career that was extremely difficult. I was on the way to a video shoot that I was overseeing for a charity campaign, and I was really in charge of this, even though I wasn't filming or directing or anything, but it was all being done on behalf of my small organisation and there was meant to be a celebrity in attendance for the shoot. And I, this magpie followed me all the way down the street, practically, and the celebrity was a no-show.
[00:24:39.780] - Oliver (Host)
Oh, wow. Yeah. But had you saluted?
[00:24:42.360] - Charlie (Guest)
Oh, I tried everything! But what I mean is sometimes it's not enough if that magpie really wants to get you, really wants to cause you some trouble.
[00:24:50.540] - Oliver (Host)
How vindictive! Okay, well, bearing in mind then that recent negative omen that we've just discussed, shall we do the tarot?
[00:25:01.510] - Charlie (Guest)
All right, we'll have to pause for me to get the cards.
[00:25:06.790] - Oliver (Host)
So I know for this that it's most helpful if I choose a specific topic.
[00:25:10.690] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, a topic or a question to help us focus.
[00:25:13.810] - Oliver (Host)
And César and I already have the Spanish podcast, the Spanish course for False Beginners, for people that want to improve their Spanish, Español Claro. So maybe we can do something about the potential success of this podcast.
[00:25:27.490] - Charlie (Guest)
Perfect.
[00:25:28.070] - Oliver (Host)
And, you know, hopefully helping people to learn English.
[00:25:30.990] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes. Well, what we'll do, I'm just shuffling the cards. The most simple card reading you can really do, other than just one [card], is past, present, and future. Okay. If you could, in your own time, in your own way, pass them to me one by one.
[00:25:46.510] - Oliver (Host)
So I just pick three cards?
[00:25:47.970] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, yes.
[00:25:49.490] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. So I've selected the three cards.
[00:25:57.200] - Charlie (Guest)
Yes, yes. It's too late now.
[00:25:58.830] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:25:59.940] - Charlie (Guest)
A little gulp of apprehension. Now, you must never have more cards reversed than upright. So when that happens, I'm turning them all around. Wow. Let me see. Ace of Rods, reversed. Obviously, people are usually more interested in the future, so I like to really decide what it is that I'm going to say about that before I start. This is the blessing, I suppose, in knowing what the question's really about and having some familiarity with it, because the past is easy enough.
[00:26:32.630] - Charlie (Guest)
It's the only major card that you have. The other two are Pip cards from the Minor Arcana. But the major theme is something that you were looking at in the past, which is justice. I suppose maybe that's you trying to counterbalance César's podcast because justice brings a sense of balance, of equality. So having the idea to counterbalance a Spanish podcast with an English version to put things more on an even keel and to start working together on it could be something that is described by the justice card. And then this is like a wonderful card to see in the present that - your king of pentacles or king of coins, you might sometimes say.
[00:27:21.010] - Charlie (Guest)
So I think that suggests a real mastery of what you're doing because there's no more seniority in each suit than the king. It's the same as playing cards in many ways.
[00:27:33.780] - Oliver (Host)
Okay.
[00:27:34.430] - Charlie (Guest)
And then Ace of Rods Reversed for the Future, I don't think it's a[n] ill omen or a sign that anything is wrong, but I think it's almost like you starting to feel not unfulfilled, but keen to expand and keen to do something else and waiting for inspiration to strike for other professional ideas.
[00:27:56.130] - Oliver (Host)
Okay.
[00:27:56.600] - Charlie (Guest)
Because if it were upright, the Ace of Rods is almost like a light-bulb moment of inspiration striking, usually in a creative or a business venture, because this is kind of, the rods are usually about action and passion, quite fiery suit. So the reversal of that card shows usually the potential for that to happen, but maybe a slight frustration in a delay or waiting for that moment to strike. But I mean, there are so many cards that you could be a bit more worried about than that one. So I think for me, it suggests that starting the podcast was a good idea to create a sense of balance and to kind of have some cooperation between the two of you.
[00:28:37.870] - Charlie (Guest)
Where you are in the present is a lot of potential and building. And so I think you have all of the right skills. But the card of the future, while it's not, like, an overwhelmingly, insanely positive one, it's just saying that you might soon be thinking, "Okay, what else can I do?" So that's you waiting for that moment and maybe being a little impatient. But it's nothing too sinister at all.
[00:29:02.640] - Oliver (Host)
Okay, great. Well, being the pessimist I am, I'm sure I'll take the negative from it and make it happen.
[00:29:10.240] - Oliver (Host)
Well, thank you so much, Charlie, for coming in today for today's episode of the podcast.
[00:29:16.040] - Charlie (Guest)
Not at all.
[00:29:16.580] - Oliver (Host)
It's been lovely to have you here, obviously. Listener, as always, thank you so much for listening. And I hope that you've got something from this episode, or at least feel if you entertain some of the same crazy things that I do, that you're not alone. As ever, please do contact me with your comments, observations at oliver@morethanalanguage.com, and I look forward to hearing from you in the future. Thank you very much and bye-bye.
[00:29:46.120] - Charlie (Guest)
Cheers.
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