6. Learning and losing a language (with Laura)

Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:

Transcript:

[00:00:00.000] - Oliver (Host)

Welcome back to English and Beyond. As with every episode, I'm publishing a transcript online so you can read along. That transcript is available at www.morethanalanguage.com. You can also reach me at oliver@morethanalanguage.com. The very first thing I want to say is to apologise my voice, which, as you can hear, I have still lost. That means that my voice is still a little bit hoarse, a little bit strained, a a bit damaged. It's especially frustrating not to be able to speak easily today, since today is a special episode, because I have my first special guest. César, César, is here, too, as always listening in, and he's very welcome to chime in with his opinions if he likes, but he's not my primary guest today. Instead, that honour goes to a very good friend of mine, Laura, or maybe Laura, we should say, since we're talking in English. If you already listen to my and César's Spanish language podcast, "Spanish for False Beginners", you may have already met Laura. She had a significant role in my language learning journey because she was the first person who began to teach me Spanish. But my linguistic connections with her don't end there.

[00:01:14.980] - Oliver (Host)

First, though, I should explain how we met. I first set eyes on Laura about a decade ago now. It's amazing how time flies. At that point in my life, in about 2012, 2013, I was studying a Mandarin language course in China at Peking University in Beijing. I was living in an area full of foreign students called Wudaokou. It's also sometimes called Korea Town for reasons that are probably obvious. This neighbourhood of the city was incredibly fun and vibrant, and somewhat chaotic. As an example of this chaos, there was a huge set of train tracks passing through the zone right in the middle of this quite built-up area. This is actually where the area gets its Mandarin name from, from this level crossing for a long distance train traveling from Beijing to inner Mongolia, some 518 miles. The crossing actually shut down in 2016, long after I had left. But someone was killed on the crossing not long before I moved to the area. So that gives you an idea of the frenzied feeling of the neighbourhood. So I was a recent arrival in Beijing, and I found myself studying one day in a Western-style coffee shop, poring over books of Chinese grammar, minding my own business.

[00:02:27.940] - Oliver (Host)

I had never lived abroad before, and although I was really enjoying how different everything was in Beijing in comparison to London, it was also sometimes nice to go somewhere that seemed a little bit British, even if it seemed a fun approximation of something Western rather than the genuine article. Primarily, though, I was in China to learn, and I was, for once in my life, extremely dedicated to my studies. All I really did at the beginning of my time in Beijing was wake up, study at a coffee shop, go to university, study some more, and study in the evening while also eating my weight in delicious Chinese food. I had one American friend I had met online right at the beginning of my trip, but I was otherwise living quite a solitary existence. The people in my Chinese language class were absolutely lovely, but we only had an intermediate level of Chinese, and virtually everyone in the class was from Japan and Korea. So other than our laboured and slow Chinese, I didn't have a common language of communication with anyone else there. I did have a couple of amazing Chinese language partners, though, and they helped me not feel so lonely.

[00:03:33.460] - Oliver (Host)

I was sitting in this coffee shop, puzzling over some of the more obscure ideograms, the Chinese symbols that they have instead of an alphabet. I was absent-mindedly watching a group of Korean students taking photos of themselves for an extended period of time, like an hour of just taking photos of themselves. This was actually the very year that selfie was named Oxford Dictionary's Word of the Year, and the year that selfies became a thing, and I'd never seen anything like it in London. Little did I know what was to come. But I was watching this young group of very glamorous Korean students, and this raucous cackle, this very loud, very wild laughter, rang out in the middle of this otherwise quite quiet scene. I swivelled in my chair, I turned around, to look at where this joyful sound came from, and I saw Laura sitting in the middle of a group of students, all just as tanned and beautiful as she was.

[00:04:33.700] - Laura (Guest)

Ay! I don't know if I can consider myself tanned.

[00:04:37.940] - Oliver (Host)

Well, you were then.

[00:04:39.470] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah.

[00:04:40.630] - Oliver (Host)

This was the Spanish contingent of Peking University in all their splendour. Laura had this incredible mane of wavy golden brown hair, just like a lion. I don't think I'd even seen someone with a smile so broad and genuine. Laura was very young at this point. She'll remind me in a moment exactly how young, but I think she was only 18 or 19, but she was already studying abroad. I can't remember exactly how we met in the end. I think we were maybe introduced by a British guy at the same university. However, once we had met, our paths crossed frequently in Wudaokou, and Laura quickly became a central figure in my language learning journey, and in fact, in my life. We clicked pretty much instantly. That is to say, we got on really well from the very beginning. She started teaching me Spanish, and her enthusiasm was infectious. She was a great first introduction to Spanish culture and the friendliness of Spaniards. I helped her with her Mandarin and taught her business English in exchange for her Spanish tutoring. I had to leave Beijing five months later, but she was there for the entire year.

[00:05:45.470] - Oliver (Host)

Maybe surprisingly, our shared story didn't end there with my departure. We've become great friends, and we're now a permanent fixture in each other's lives. She came to my sister's wedding as my guest many years ago, for example. After returning to London, I sent by my job to Frankfurt, Germany, where Laura had just been working as well. She soon moved to London, and two years later, I followed her back here. Moving from Beijing to Frankfurt to London via a lot of time in Spain for both of us, means that we've also had some shared linguistic history. At various different stages, we've had different levels of fluency in Mandarin, German, English, and Spanish. However, unlike Laura and my relationship, these languages haven't all stuck around for either of us. We both know far too well the bitter sweet experience of learning and then gradually losing touch with a language. When you're immersed in a language, for example, by living in the country where it's spoken, it becomes a part of your daily life. The motivation to learn and maintain the language is generally always there. But as you move on, sometimes literally out of the country, the target language begins to slip away as you lose opportunities to regularly practise it.

[00:06:59.230] - Oliver (Host)

You forget vocabulary vocabulary, grammar rules, and eventually, even basic speaking becomes difficult. This can be a distressing experience, especially when people assume, quite fairly, that you'll speak a language fluently, having lived in a place for a year or more. So, Laura, Laura, how do you feel about your language skills in German, Mandarin, and English now?

[00:07:20.900] - Laura (Guest)

Oh, my God. Hello, everyone, and thanks for having me.

[00:07:26.110] - Oliver (Host)

You're welcome.

[00:07:26.510] - Laura (Guest)

This is my second podcast. I'm becoming more and more used to speaking slowly.

[00:07:33.890] - Oliver (Host)

Exactly.

[00:07:35.810] - Laura (Guest)

The first thing I wanted to say before I move on around how do I feel about speaking German and Chinese now, especially at the beginning - when I was listening to - when we started speaking to each other in English, I was so conscious about mine (i.e. my English). It would make me feel very embarrassed to talk to you in English because I find, like, his accent is really sexy and really nice, so I feel, I don't know, I was always really conscious about not making any mistakes.

[00:08:07.460] - Oliver (Host)

Do you mean back in Beijing?

[00:08:09.580] - Laura (Guest)

Back in Beijing and through the years. I think it's taking me some years to feel comfortable about not making mistakes with you, which is so stupid because, I don't know.

[00:08:20.450] - Oliver (Host)

Especially if the reason is because you think that someone's accent is sexy. I've never heard that. I don't think anyone has ever called my accent sexy before.

[00:08:29.380] - Laura (Guest)

Are you kidding? To me, it is.

[00:08:31.090] - Oliver (Host)

That's funny. Especially not now that I can barely speak.

[00:08:35.820] - Laura (Guest)

Well, I think Oliver knows that I do English accent a lot, and I find it sexy. And yours, I don't know, is quite the-

[00:08:44.640] - Oliver (Host)

Well, You quite like English and British men in general, right? You'd like a British boyfriend, but you've never had one.

[00:08:51.970] - Laura (Guest)

Correct. After seven years in the UK, by the way. Anyway, going back to the topic. So I'm, I don't speak. I mean, it's so sad, right? Because I always liked languages. As Oliver said, it's very hard to maintain the level of proficiency or whatever level I had unless you practise them. I definitely haven't practised. My mum always wondered why I was studying so many languages. She always said, languages do not count for anything. You just need to speak English very well, which I obviously disagreed (with).

[00:09:32.000] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, that's really interesting that on the one hand, your mum says, languages don't matter, but it's almost like English doesn't count as a language because it matters so much.

[00:09:41.600] - Laura (Guest)

Exactly.

[00:09:41.940] - Oliver (Host)

That's really funny.

[00:09:42.210] - Laura (Guest)

She always said, If you are proficient in English, then your life is solved, at least for your generation, who knows what's coming. But I did enjoy, though, learning Chinese with you. Also, it enabled (me) to merge a lot more with the culture and really to enjoy that year a lot more.

[00:10:07.020] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, you were so young, right?

[00:10:08.570] - Laura (Guest)

Yes.

[00:10:08.970] - Oliver (Host)

I think I was like 24, 25. I felt relatively young, but you were what, 18?

[00:10:16.670] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah.

[00:10:17.180] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, it's so brave in hindsight to move to-

[00:10:19.550] - Laura (Guest)

I was 20, 20 I think.

[00:10:22.220] - Oliver (Host)

Well, maybe you must have turned 20 there, no? Because your birthday is in January, no? Yeah. So, yeah, you must have turned 20 in that year. But to go at 19, I think is funny. It's funny as well to me because when I was 24 and you were 19, you seemed so young to me.

[00:10:41.470] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, I agree.

[00:10:43.200] - Oliver (Host)

Now that we're both in our 30s, that gap feels very small.

[00:10:46.670] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, exactly. We were very good friends at that time, right? But it's true that over the years, I feel we became a lot closer. I think another thing that happened over the years with us is, obviously at the beginning, we both spoke English, mostly between us. Then, I don't know, the relationship had been evolving. I think we were having lunch earlier, and we realised that we normally now talk in Spanish most frequently.

[00:11:18.530] - Oliver (Host)

Partly because of, as we noted, partly because César is there with us, which means that there's always a - kind of - majority Spanish contingent. You are very typically Spanish in the sense that you've lived here for seven years and yet you have almost exclusively Spanish friends, right?

[00:11:38.630] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, yes. You know how much I like the culture? I like living here. I do like having English friends. But I don't know why. It just feels closer to home, perhaps.

[00:11:51.800] - Oliver (Host)

Maybe that exactly. And it's just easier, isn't it? Languages are obviously a vehicle or a tool that we can use to learn about other cultures. But it's only half the battle because things like senses of humour, memes, things from your childhood that you found funny, you can share them with me, but I won't get them. Some of them I will now, but it's almost like when you learn a language - like I started learning Spanish at 24, 25 - it's almost like anything before that time in Spain I don't know about unless I go and research it. Whereas you everything from your childhood that is a shared experience. For sure, I think that it doesn't surprise me. When I lived abroad, for example, I definitely searched out more British people because as you say, it just makes you feel at home.

[00:12:47.510] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah. Adding to that, I worked for a Spanish company and then I changed jobs a couple of years ago to an English bank. And it was really funny because I obviously thought that I was very fluent in the language. But then because all my bosses were Spaniards before, when I changed jobs and my bosses started to only speak English, all the hard conversations that I had to have with them, like all the fighting or whatever - raises, I wanna - I don't know, you want to go this way and I want to go the other way.

[00:13:23.580] - Oliver (Host)

Like arguing for a raise, you mean? Like trying to get a raise.

[00:13:27.280] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, correct.

[00:13:28.210] - Oliver (Host)

Just to clarify for the listener who might not I don't know. A raise is… If you argue for a raise or request a raise, it's going to your boss and saying, I would like to be paid more money. I would like a bigger salary for the work that I do. An important part, I imagine, of working in a bank.

[00:13:45.580] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah. But it was very hard to find the specific words because sometimes I realised that there is a very fine line between using one word and the other Where, I mean, if you're in your, in my normal work, in my day to day, it doesn't matter because it's very technical wording - people understand what you mean. But the moment that you want something very specific, it was very hard for me. I think I've improved my English for the past two years a lot.

[00:14:18.870] - Oliver (Host)

Because the word that you use, the connotation or the implication of the word might be offensive or just too direct or something like that.

[00:14:27.040] - Laura (Guest)

Oh, yeah. I consider, I always consider myself not that Spanish compared to others that live in the UK. But the reality is that when I joined this bank, everyone was like, "Oh, my God, you're really Spanish. You're so [inaudible 00:14:43]." It's like, I'm not. I've been here for so many years, but apparently I am.

[00:14:48.740] - Oliver (Host)

That's interesting. I guess it depends how you define a nationality, which is very difficult, right?

[00:14:55.440] - Laura (Guest)

I think you would have thought that the more time I, I was spending the UK, your accent improves. Obviously, you understand more accents, but you become more lazy.

[00:15:06.030] - Oliver (Host)

Do you remember my friend Franziska? Franziska is the guest in the episode next week about accents. Oh, my God. As a little spoiler for the next episode, she hates her accent. Really? Hates it. She's been obsessed over the years with trying to improve it because she hates it. As soon as she meets someone, they're like, "So where do you come from in Germany?"

[00:15:32.120] - Laura (Guest)

Oh, no.

[00:15:35.050] - Oliver (Host)

Well actually, speaking of Germany and German, I don't think you ever actually got around to answering the question of how is your German and your Mandarin now?

[00:15:43.810] - Laura (Guest)

Oh my god, yes, I tried to avoid that question.

[00:15:47.940] - Oliver (Host)

We could call this rubbing salt in the wound.

[00:15:51.560] - Laura (Guest)

Yes. So it's non-existent. I think the only thing I remember how to say in Chinese now is, "This is very expensive, make it cheaper".

[00:16:03.140] - Oliver (Host)

Which is a key phrase, probably also in a bank, still.

[00:16:07.920] - Laura (Guest)

It's not that I use it.

[00:16:10.650] - Oliver (Host)

When they need it, when they have a Chinese client, that will be useful. Yeah, true. You'll get yourself a raise.

[00:16:20.260] - Laura (Guest)

In German, it's even worse. I don't think I remember even the numbers, which is very sad, right?

[00:16:28.420] - Oliver (Host)

I don't think you learned. I mean, I don't know, obviously, I wasn't there -

[00:16:32.480] - Laura (Guest)

You're right.

[00:16:32.860] - Oliver (Host)

But you didn't learn German formally, did you? Whereas you actually went to Spanish, Mandarin classes. Whereas German was just a little bit to get by.

[00:16:42.580] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, exactly.

[00:16:44.300] - Oliver (Host)

How long were you in Germany for?

[00:16:46.050] - Laura (Guest)

Another year.

[00:16:47.400] - Oliver (Host)

Wow. Okay. Yeah, fair enough.

[00:16:48.860] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah, I just finished Uni there and then I moved back to Spain to start working. Then I came to (the) UK after a year.

[00:16:59.210] - Oliver (Host)

So a lot of moving. How do you feel about the fact that, like with Mandarin, for example, you invested time, you invested money? I say this without judgment because, sadly, I have lost basically all my Mandarin as well now. I think I had classes, about five hours a day of classes for about 18 months. I was actually really happy with my Mandarin, and it was the first modern language, really, that I spoke. It was such a strange, surreal experience for me to be able to go to another country, have conversations with people and the language like - obviously, no language, really, I sup- I was going to say no language is more foreign than another, but I suppose that's not true. In English, there are obviously more linguistic connections between English and other European languages than there are with Chinese. It felt bizarre to me to be speaking another language that seemed so foreign to me and exciting. I put so much effort into it, and now it's gone.

[00:18:01.020] - Laura (Guest)

To me, I didn't realise Chinese was so difficult until I got there. Before going to China, I think I took, I don't know, I could count with my fingers how many classes I took of Chinese. I was like, Oh, that should be enough to get around.

[00:18:20.580] - Oliver (Host)

I'll get by!

[00:18:21.080] - Laura (Guest)

I can just say hello and that's it. So, I got there, which - I was lucky that another Spaniard I was going with me. He was also "very fluent", which ended up not being the case. But anyway, so I became very close to him because he was able to order water. I was like, "Oh, this is my guy." I was in a restaurant, not even able to read anything. And he was like, "Water, please." I was like, Yeah.

[00:18:51.040] - Oliver (Host)

We're done. Well, that's half of the food and drink that you needed to have. And always hot water, right? Boiled water.

[00:19:00.900] - Laura (Guest)

Yes, yes, it was impossible to get cold water.

[00:19:04.050] - Oliver (Host)

Well, I actually carried on getting boiling water here afterwards for a while because I got used to it and actually quite liked it. And they say that it's better for you. The Chinese swear that it's better for your digestion. Maybe it is.

[00:19:15.780] - Laura (Guest)

Maybe.

[00:19:16.830] - Oliver (Host)

But I haven't done that for a while, actually, drinking boiled water.

[00:19:19.260] - Laura (Guest)

I never end up doing it, I think, or at least never got used to it. But it was cool. I agree with everything you said around exciting. I also took a number of hours of Chinese in that year. I think it was five hours per day. So I got to a point where I was properly, I mean not fluent, but I was able to have conversations with people around. It allowed me to travel.

[00:19:50.220] - Oliver (Host)

You had a language partner, and I think you went to visit her house, didn't you? Or his house?

[00:19:54.430] - Laura (Guest)

Her house.

[00:19:54.960] - Oliver (Host)

Her house, yeah. Outside of Beijing, you went to the family home.

[00:19:59.300] - Laura (Guest)

Yes.

[00:19:59.750] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, that's cool.

[00:20:01.030] - Laura (Guest)

That was honestly amazing, the cultural experience that I had there. They took me... I don't know. None of the family spoke a word in English nor in Spanish, but she - my language partner, her Spanish was unbelievable. I don't know if you think... Because I have an opinion about the university that we went to. We went to the best university out of the whole China.

[00:20:28.040] - Oliver (Host)

Which for us, we should say It wasn't because we were the best students. Basically, they just ran a language course that was not... You didn't have to get grades to get into anything. But all of the actual students that were there, the Chinese students who were studying their normal courses, they were from this country of one and a half billion people. They were the absolute best.

[00:20:48.740] - Laura (Guest)

Yes.

[00:20:48.990] - Oliver (Host)

Which is interesting.

[00:20:49.800] - Laura (Guest)

It was interesting on one side that they would learn languages just out of a book without ever (having) been to Spain or spoken to a Spanish person; her Spanish was unbelievable. On the other side, I feel that they were sometimes very socially awkward.

[00:21:08.440] - Oliver (Host)

The kids, the students.

[00:21:10.680] - Laura (Guest)

The students in that university because they were so book-focused. I had friends in my classes where they ha-, they never spoke to a girl in their lives. It was so weird for them and obviously not a foreign person either. So yeah, interesting, definitely.

[00:21:31.600] - Oliver (Host)

So after China, you went to Germany, where you worked, and then you came here to London, as we talked about. When you were growing up, did you dream that you would have what we could call this international jet set lifestyle, this - the life of travelling to glamorous locations, like Frankfurt and London?

[00:21:51.810] - Laura (Guest)

I always wanted to travel. I feel it's enriching and it's - me personally, I find London special. I always wanted to move here. I think we also have this cultural thing in Spain where we think London is amazing, and it is, right? But I think for the wrong reasons there because we see it on the movies. Because I always wanted to work for a bank, so...

[00:22:23.080] - Oliver (Host)

I've seen some Spanish movies, almost entirely comedies, where the UK and Oxford and places like that are depicted. It's really a bizarre - kind of, like - set of stereotypes that Spaniards have about it. I've got a couple more questions for you. You're obviously in London now. It's kind of a double question, this: where would you go to next if you had to, if they deported you? Where would you go next?

[00:22:51.300] - Laura (Guest)

Can I say Spain, or...?

[00:22:52.540] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, of course. The other question I was going to say is, what do you miss most about Madrid? Because Madrid is obviously where you're actually from.

[00:23:00.510] - Laura (Guest)

Yes. I'm from Madrid, and I would love to go back at some point. I feel UK, for a lot of Spaniards, is temporarily. Temporarily? Temporary.

[00:23:13.590] - Oliver (Host)

Temporary.

[00:23:14.230] - Laura (Guest)

Temporary.

[00:23:14.560] - Oliver (Host)

Or you are here temporarily.

[00:23:16.590] - Laura (Guest)

Yes. So a lot of my friends come and go. I'm here because I like my job and my life here is great. But I think that I want to go back at some point. I would say I would go back to Spain and Madrid in particular. But if I had to choose any other country, I don't know, I'd probably be somewhere in South America just for a change.

[00:23:45.870] - Oliver (Host)

Interesting. You liked Mexico, didn't you?

[00:23:48.990] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah. My dad lived in Mexico. Now he's in Peru.

[00:23:53.890] - Oliver (Host)

Oh, wow.

[00:23:54.660] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah, for just for a few months.

[00:23:57.970] - Oliver (Host)

Cool.

[00:23:59.090] - Laura (Guest)

But I think what I like about it, London, is that it's just two hours away from my house. So that's very easy.

[00:24:08.810] - Oliver (Host)

Yeah, absolutely. 100%. So my last question, really, is you actually talked a little bit about this. You said that you feel very conscious of your English, and you also said you feel like... I think you said that you went through different stages where you felt embarrassed when you were talking to me because you felt that my accent, unsurprisingly, is very British, and you didn't feel your accent was. I once remember that I said something, I really badly miscommunicated something to you, where I wanted to say that I find it really true that in different languages, you can have a very different personality. That's true. In English, which was our main language of communication for the first few years, you were very, very relaxed and care-free. Whereas in Spanish, when we started talking in Spanish much more, I discovered this other personality to you, which is much more serious and pensive. Do you think that the idea is right, that you do have differences in your personality when you speak one language or the other? What do you think about that?

[00:25:10.040] - Laura (Guest)

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't know if I'll have different personalities. Definitely different ways of doing things or talking to people or addressing specific topics. I'm more confident in my English now and I can have more deeper conversations in English, but there was a point where it was just not possible.

[00:25:33.930] - Oliver (Host)

"Let's go out. Let's have a drink!"

[00:25:35.400] - Laura (Guest)

"Yes, that's a beer! The weather looks really nice!" And that was maximum, you know? But I do think I'm more serious in Spanish. I agree. I do think I sound smarter in Spanish as well.

[00:25:50.090] - Oliver (Host)

You sound more...

[00:25:50.650] - Laura (Guest)

Like smart, more smart.

[00:25:52.300] - Oliver (Host)

Smarter.

[00:25:52.770] - Laura (Guest)

So smarter. Because you just use more, I mean, better words, more fine words. And I mean, the use of the language is just more fluent.

[00:26:03.620] - Oliver (Host)

I mean, but it's just when you're learning a language and you start and you feel insecure because you're like, "God, I sound so stupid." Because everything is so slow and your ideas are so basic and you're trying to express something profound. But it's just literally impossible. I have this in French now where my French is getting better. And it's funny because where I can imitate Spanish grammar or translate directly from Spanish or from English, I think it can sound really great for a sentence or two. Then I don't know the word for, I don't know, door or something, and you just sound really ignorant. But obviously, you just have to tell yourself that everyone passes through that if they've learned a language as an adult. I I think that almost all of the listeners for this podcast will be in that situation of learning a language as an adult, as we have done. The most important thing, listener, though, is that you do not forget that language and do a better job than we have with Chinese.

[00:27:16.970] - Laura (Guest)

Can I tell something to the audience very quick and we'll wrap up? Also, obviously, you make a lot of mistakes, and especially when you come to the UK. One of the funniest ones that I've done, it was, I was working and one of my clients was called Christopher. I was sending emails to Chris. For six months, I sent emails to Chris asking for Excels or asking for whatever. Then at some point someone came to me and said, "Oh, by the way, you know that Christopher is shortened by Chris without a T at the end?" So for six months, I was sending emails to Christ, which is asking for God, asking for an Excel to God.

[00:28:00.440] - Oliver (Host)

In fact, I would say that it sounds quite aggressive. Where you're like, "Jesus Christ, can you send me the Excel?"

[00:28:09.380] - Laura (Guest)

Oh my God, yes. "Dear Christ, can you-"

[00:28:12.570] - Oliver (Host)

"Can you get on with it? Can you hurry up and send this?" Very good. I like that. Okay, perfect. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on to this podcast for the first time, but one of our podcasts for the second. I hope you've had a nice time and thank you so much for talking to us about your experiences of learning and losing languages. So, listener, I hope you've enjoyed this episode with Laura. If you have enjoyed the episode, please, as always, very podcast-typical, please rate, subscribe, and share the podcast with anyone you like. And feel free, as always, to send me an email at oliver@morethanalanguage.com. I've really enjoyed receiving some emails from some of you already. It's been lovely to hear from you, so please do send me some more. Thank you very much, and thank you for listening. See you next time, and hopefully, I will have my voice back.

[00:29:09.870] - Laura (Guest)

Bye. Thanks for having me. Okay, cool.