NEW - Quizlet Flashcards: click here for link to vocabulary cards from this episode
[00:00:06.980] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome to English and Beyond, an intermediate to advanced level podcast for learners of English as a foreign language. The first thing that I want to say is, of course, that if you can't understand anything in this episode, you can find the transcript and Quizlet flashcards available on our website at www.morethanalanguage.com.
[00:00:30.050] - Oliver (Host)
Now, listener, viewer, if you're listening to this as a podcast, you won't notice anything weird in all likelihood, most likely. But if you're watching this episode on YouTube or Spotify video, you'll see that there is an actual video accompanying the episode for the very first time. If you're listening on Apple, I'm afraid that actually you can't see the video. If you're watching on Spotify and don't want to see the video, then there's a little button there that will help minimise it for you. But if you are watching, you'll notice something very, very odd. I have a mask. I'm wearing a Balaclava, to be exact, although with a cute little hat. I'm not planning to rob a bank, though, I actually bought it for this podcast, specifically on Etsy. So, I know how odd this must seem. Some people I've shown the balaclava to have been horrified, and they say that they find it very scary. That's why I'm wearing the hat, too, to try to minimise that effect a little bit.
[00:01:37.170] - Oliver (Host)
I also know that many people will see it as unnecessarily dramatic or theatrical, and I guess it probably is. But there's a reason for this, and I'm going to explain it. In doing so, I'm also going to talk more broadly about anonymity in itself, what it means, how it's been used in the past, why we need it now more than ever and the risks that come with it.
[00:02:04.410] - Oliver (Host)
Now, for a little bit of irony, in an episode in which I'm going to be talking about this topic, I'm going to ask you to follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whatever app you use. If you do follow, it increases the chances that the app will recommend the podcast to other people, which will make it easier for me to reach new people and to continue the podcast. Please also follow us on Instagram at @BritishEnglishAndBeyond. As I say, I recognise the irony of these requests.
[00:02:36.950] - Oliver (Host)
There's a famous quote, that you've almost certainly heard before. It's often attributed, falsely, as it turns out, to Andy Warhol. "In the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." The meaning of that quote has changed over time. Originally, it seemed to suggest that fame was becoming more accessible. Now, people tend to focus on the second part of the idea: that fame will only last a brief quarter of an hour, only 15 minutes. Fame has been devalued, as if it's now too easy to get and has become meaningless to have it when you've acquired this fame. But for me, the quotation isn't really about fame at all; it's about privacy. I think that the internet has made privacy harder to hold on to for everyone. If you've listened to this podcast before, you'll know that I actually use my middle name rather than my first name. It's not a big secret. My real name is not actually especially exciting, and I'm not some international spy or something like that. But this small layer of extra anonymity, like my balaclava, is something that I've chosen deliberately. It's as if I'm putting this small layer between this podcast and my real life. Why? Well, partially, it's just practical. Even with the very few people I know in real life who listen to this podcast, it can be very strange to have your own words repeated back to you.
[00:04:12.600] - Oliver (Host)
Quite a lot of people actually listen to the Spanish language podcasts that I do with César. I've had conversations with some acquaintances, people I barely know, or even people I don't know at all, and they'll suddenly say, "Oh, but you think this about that topic," based on something I've said in an episode. I'm always taken aback, I'm always a little bit surprised. Imagine speaking to someone who already knows exactly what you think about Instagram, tattoos, narcissism, shame, even about - as you'll see in next week's episode - something called mad cow disease. It's strange. It's a bit bizarre. And in a way, this attempt at anonymity is my attempt to put a little bit of distance between me and this content, even though I am the one creating it. It's not that I think that this podcast will suddenly get big in the future or something like that, it's more that - imagine if I decided to do something else in my later life, something that does have a public profile, like politics or something in that realm - I don't want to have to listen to my own words repeated back to me again and again. But there's something deeper than that, too.
[00:05:29.770] - Oliver (Host)
I I think anonymity as a concept is actually really interesting and important. Anonymity gives you freedom. It allows you to say what you want to say, to express yourself without the anxiety that it will come back to haunt you. If I were a famous person, a real celebrity, I think I'd be one of those people who often retreats into anonymity. I'd put on a hat, some sunglasses, and maybe a good wig so that I could just go to the supermarket in peace. I think about celebrities who have done exactly that, who feel they have to disguise themselves just to live a normal life. Think about Sia, for example, who started wearing wigs that covered her face partially because she just couldn't handle the scrutiny. Or Banksy, the street artist whose entire identity is built on anonymity. Although his identity is in reality an open secret, you never ever see photos of him. And he successfully maintained that veil, that shroud of anonymity, and that's undoubtedly part of his success.
[00:06:34.940] - Oliver (Host)
You could also think about masked balls, those glamorous parties of the past where people wore elaborate masks and cloaks to disguise their identities. The idea was that you could act differently when no one knew who you were. You could flirt, dance, and behave in general in ways that you wouldn't dare to do if your identity were clear. This anonymity gave people a sense of liberty, of freedom.
[00:07:03.760] - Oliver (Host)
But it's not just about parties and art and feeling good. There are times when anonymity has been critically important. For example, in whistleblowing. Imagine you work at a company that's breaking the law or just doing something unethical. Anonymity might be the only way you can reveal the truth without putting your job, your personal safety, or even your family at risk. Anonymity can be a way to keep you and your loved ones safe from people who would hurt them, from people who would do them harm. Alternatively, there are many cases where you maintain anonymity because it allows you to be honest. We see this, for example, in various self-help groups like Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, where anonymity is a key part of the group's foundation. The idea is that people are free to share their stories without fear of judgement or exposure. If you had to register, if you had to give your full name, if everyone there knew more about you than you were willing to disclose, people wouldn't go. They may not be able to recover, and their lives and society would be worse for it.
[00:08:16.630] - Oliver (Host)
So that's the positive side of anonymity. It gives you freedom, it gives you security, but there's also sometimes a darker side to it. Anonymity can be dangerous and it can be hurtful. It's part of the reason why we have so many issues with trolls on the internet. When someone feels anonymous, they can say anything without consequences. People feel brave behind a mask. They can hurl insults, spread misinformation and tear people down without ever being held accountable. So there's an unfortunate reality becoming clear here. Anonymity makes it easier to speak freely, but it also makes it easier to speak cruelly. I've mentioned in previous episodes and on the Spanish podcast that César receives way more negative feedback than I do. I'm almost certain that it's because people can see his face as well as hear his voice. They see him as a real person, whereas with me, I'm just a voice, a name, I might not even be real. Some people have asked César if I'm actually just AI, artificial intelligence. And because of that, people seem to care less about me. They generally can't even be bothered to insult someone they can't see.
[00:09:36.370] - Oliver (Host)
So why am I still choosing to wear a mask? Why am I sitting here in a balaclava explaining myself to you? Why not just carry on as I was before? Well, the truth is, I'm trying to strike a balance. César keeps telling me that people like to see who they're listening to, that they feel more connected when they can put a face to a voice. And I understand that. So I'm experimenting. Maybe I'll try something new each week, a balaclava this week, something else the next? Maybe this will just be a one-off. I don't know yet. But I know that I don't want to do what César does, or at least not yet, and give up my anonymity and have hours and hours of content on the internet there forever with my face all over it. To be absolutely frank, I'm not sure that my ego could take take some of the criticism and comments that César gets.
[00:10:34.440] - Oliver (Host)
Maybe partly it's because when I was little, my mother always told me to keep my cards close to my chest. That idiom means to keep secrets, to share only what is necessary. My mum believes in secrecy as a way of life. Curiously, I'm actually not like that at all in real life. I'm quite confessional. I tell people more than they probably need to know about me. But the difference is, when I share something, I choose what I share, when I share it, how I share it, and I know that more or less, the conversation ends there. Anonymity gives you choice. It allows you to decide what parts of yourself you want to share and what parts you want to keep private. And I think that's why anonymity is so fascinating. Really, I guess, it's about control, it's about freedom, and it's about the tension between wanting to be seen and wanting to be hidden. Whether it's a whistleblower revealing corruption, a spy wearing a disguise, or simply a shy podcaster wearing a balaclava, anonymity has always been with us. It's part of our history, and I'm frankly just hoping that it continues to play a part in our future. I'm hoping that the famous quotation about 15 minutes of fame does not turn out to be literally true for everyone. Because the trouble is, in 2025, it's not 15 minutes - you're there on the internet forever.
[00:12:10.220] - Oliver (Host)
Okay, César, how are you?
[00:12:15.540] - César (Guest)
Well, I'm getting used to it, I suppose.
[00:12:19.110] - Oliver (Host)
Well, it's very temporary. Next week, it will probably be something different.
[00:12:23.040] - César (Guest)
So you're going to be changing the way you disguise yourself?
[00:12:27.820] - Oliver (Host)
That's the idea. I mean, we'll see, because the topic today is obviously anonymity. What do you think of anonymity? Do you think that the points that I've made are good?
[00:12:40.650] - César (Guest)
Yeah, they were really interesting. I've never thought about things like whistleblowing, how important anonymity is for those cases. You talked about me as well. I guess, because we are different people.
[00:12:58.820] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:13:00.110] - César (Guest)
For me, anonymity is not that important. But I completely understand knowing you, why it is important for you not showing your face and leaving that little space of anonymity for -
[00:13:20.110] - Oliver (Host)
Myself.
[00:13:21.180] - César (Guest)
For yourself, yeah.
[00:13:21.820] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, because I recognise that it's - I didn't want in this episode just to talk about why I wanted to be semi-anonymous, but instead I said about the topic of anonymity in general. César. Get over it.
[00:13:34.790] - César (Guest)
Sorry, it's difficult to get -
[00:13:37.420] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I'm not -
[00:13:38.150] - César (Guest)
Because it's creepy. The balaclava is quite creepy.
[00:13:44.790] - Oliver (Host)
But it's quite cute as well. It's pink.
[00:13:46.650] - César (Guest)
Well, the hat makes it cute, definitely. But it's like I'm talking to someone with a...weird.
[00:13:54.360] - Oliver (Host)
As I mentioned in the speech, actually, the hat has come because I I looked at myself in the mirror with the balaclava and it was too weird, so this might be weirder, but it's less threatening because it did look a bit like I was going to rob a bank. This was the compromise. I don't have, I don't have a big budget or much time right now for my anonymity, so we'll see.
[00:14:21.430] - César (Guest)
Do you want to ask the audience if they like this outfit, this option?
[00:14:26.040] - Oliver (Host)
No.
[00:14:26.390] - César (Guest)
We can make a poll.
[00:14:27.770] - Oliver (Host)
No, I'd rather not know, to be honest. I'll assume that they don't because I showed it to a couple of people in our lives, and absolutely no one thought it was a good idea. But we'll just see how it goes.
[00:14:42.110] - César (Guest)
But I sent a picture of you to my mum, and she didn't recognise you. She was like, "Who is that?"
[00:14:49.440] - Oliver (Host)
That's the goal. That's the goal. No? That is ideally what I want. But I think that the balaclava will be a one-off because it's extremely itchy, it's really itchy, yeah, and uncomfortable, as you can imagine. But let's, getting back to the topic, talk about the lengths that people will go to for anonymity. In my case, this is just a slightly itchy face. But people defend their anonymity really strongly, and I think it's actually a really good idea. I remember when I was working for a company, it was an aviation company in the UK, or at least in their UK office. And we had - I was working as a lawyer at the time, and we had a lot of problems with the German customers and workforce because the Germans really valued their anonymity. They really valued the right to have their details forgotten by the company, for the company not to retain all of their data. It really struck me at the time because it was interesting how different cultures had a different attitude to anonymity. I think depending on the history of a country, they can realise the importance of maintaining, not necessarily anonymity, but a distance and not allowing their governments to collect all sorts of information.
[00:16:17.700] - Oliver (Host)
Obviously, it's one of the, I think, big benefits of the EU with GDPR, that that has been standardised, that basically there is a consciousness that we need to protect data, because it's, I think it is concerning that on Google, for example, Google knows more about me than you do. As far as I'm aware, you know everything about me. I don't think I have any secrets from you.
[00:16:45.990] - César (Guest)
Yeah, but I'm not as intelligent as the algorithm.
[00:16:48.940] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly.
[00:16:49.280] - César (Guest)
The algorithm can work out who you really are by making formulas or working out formulas, combinations, and working out who you really are, what you really like, things about you that you might not even know.
[00:17:05.480] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly. That's what I was going to say, because unlike you, it remembers everything that you ever tell it and stores it perfectly. Then it can use that to guess what you will do next. It has you, guessing what I will do next, only have me. Whereas Google, or other companies like Google have everyone in the world, basically, to build behaviour-guessing models off of. So I think that the mask is obviously silly. My anonymity attempt is silly. I recognise that, and anybody who knows me will recognise me through this mask. But I think it's almost like it's important to me to just recognise that I think it is important.
[00:17:50.350] - César (Guest)
I'm sorry. I will get used to it, but you have to give me some time.
[00:17:56.310] - Oliver (Host)
This is the first time anyone will ever have seen us touch each other. Yeah, that's, maybe it's on the camera, I don't know.
[00:18:03.660] - César (Guest)
High five.
[00:18:04.810] - Oliver (Host)
You wanted to hold hands, didn't you?
[00:18:06.740] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:18:06.700] - Oliver (Host)
No. What was I going to say next?
[00:18:12.280] - César (Guest)
But it's interesting now that we've moved to Spain, I've got, or you have the cultural shock, and I've got the reverse cultural shock, where in Spain, if you go to the supermarket, you have to fill out the form if you want to become a a member, and you have to give all your details, but even your passport details. Everything.
[00:18:38.040] - Oliver (Host)
At the self-checkout, at those the automatic terminals where you can pay for your goods, they ask for your DNI, your basically citizenship.
[00:18:50.980] - César (Guest)
National ID.
[00:18:51.190] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, your citizenship number, which to me, it seems absolutely crazy. In the UK, we don't even have a citizenship card. For there not only to be one, but to be used for everything. Because actually, I've got an appointment with the dermatologist this week, another advantage of a mask that I can hide any skin issues, no? But I have an appointment with the dermatologist, and they needed to know my passport number for that appointment, just for a chat. And I find that really bizarre. I think that unless people specifically say, I think that this is unnecessary, then I think it slowly encroaches, it slowly advances and it becomes normalised. For lots of people, they don't care about that. I don't know why I care. I honestly have no reason to care, but I care. It matters to me. I didn't mean for this episode to become very political. I thought that we would have some nice fun chats about the masked balls that I mentioned, where very glamorous soirées, glamorous evening parties, where people wear one of those handheld masks. I thought that was quite a cute version of anonymity.
[00:20:06.280] - César (Guest)
You know what, when I heard your monologue, I thought about when I first moved to London, I wasn't wearing a mask, but I felt -
[00:20:15.880] - Oliver (Host)
Anonymous.
[00:20:16.150] - César (Guest)
Anonymous. Not for the first time in my life, but obviously in Valencia, as you know now, you bump(ed) into people you know every other day. Basically, we ran into my sister, my dad, my friends, our friends, my mum. That doesn't happen in London, especially when I first moved there. I didn't know anyone, no one knew me. I felt like, well, actually, it could be a bit weird on the street and no one would think anything of me.
[00:20:48.040] - Oliver (Host)
Even in the very small neighbourhood where we lived in London, we knew people who lived a street away, and you still rarely bumped into them. Bumping into people in the street is actually that happens to you quite often. And it's one of the reasons why I don't want to show my face in it.
[00:21:05.480] - César (Guest)
You mean people who listen to our podcast?
[00:21:08.730] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly. You are very far from famous.
[00:21:12.260] - César (Guest)
No, no, no.
[00:21:13.650] - Oliver (Host)
There's absolutely no doubt that you are not famous. And yet you've been stopped, I think it's 20 times now in the last few years, obviously increasingly as well. And you get stopped all over the place. In every city that we go to, there's the... I'm not saying every city that we go to, you get stopped, but certainly in the cities that we go to a lot, it happens quite often. In somewhere like Valencia, it happened like, what, three times in the first couple of weeks.
[00:21:41.820] - César (Guest)
Yeah, especially in night clubs.
[00:21:43.900] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly.
[00:21:44.960] - César (Guest)
This makes me think that probably people might recognise me in other places, but they don't want to say.
[00:21:50.250] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:21:50.790] - César (Guest)
Because I did recognise, I listened to so many podcasts, and I recognise, now that we live in Spain, a few podcasters on the street or even in London as well. But I never said to them, "Oh, I listen to your podcast," because I'm very shy and I feel very timid about saying hi to someone who I know, but they don't know me. But I think when you're in a nightclub, you might have a drink or something or two drinks, you feel more courageous.
[00:22:22.760] - Oliver (Host)
Empowered.
[00:22:23.490] - César (Guest)
Empowered, yeah.
[00:22:24.540] - Oliver (Host)
No, you say you're courageous, you feel braver to go and talk to someone.
[00:22:30.540] - César (Guest)
Everyone is very nice every time they...
[00:22:32.780] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, of course.
[00:22:34.810] - César (Guest)
This 20 or 30 times they...
[00:22:37.430] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, I say, of course, but maybe someone soon will come up to you and say, "I really hate your podcast. I listened to one episode and never again."
[00:22:44.450] - César (Guest)
It'd be cool if someone can recognise you via your voice.
[00:22:48.640] - Oliver (Host)
No, I mean, I clearly don't want that. The only person that is likely to be able to recognise me for my voice is Google, which I want even less.
[00:22:59.750] - César (Guest)
Siri.
[00:23:00.410] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly Siri.
[00:23:01.480] - César (Guest)
But actually, your Siri thinks that I am you.
[00:23:04.730] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Well, no, I find that a bit offensive sometimes because you pronounce the R in a really, kind of, not… You pronounce it in a really somewhat ridiculous way imitating my British accent. I'm like, Siri.
[00:23:16.830] - César (Guest)
I'm going to say Siri. Hey, Siri.
[00:23:21.970] - Oliver (Host)
Ah, you failed.
[00:23:23.630] - César (Guest)
Was that yours or mine?
[00:23:24.960] - Oliver (Host)
It was mine.
[00:23:25.470] - César (Guest)
You see?
[00:23:25.860] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:23:27.240] - César (Guest)
It's well-trained.
[00:23:28.970] - Oliver (Host)
Apparently, it knows you better than me. I feel like we're veering, of course, quite a lot here, no? Anonymity. In a professional setting, anonymity is not that important to you. There are hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage of you now online. So if anyone ever wants to create a deep fake César, that will be very, very easy. Are you equally open in your personal life, would you say? Because I think that we're actually kind of interesting here - I mean, I ask you a question, knowing the answer. I think I'm more open than you are in our personal lives, but less for strangers.
[00:24:09.800] - César (Guest)
Yeah, that's true. That's absolutely true. I've never thought of that. Well, my mum is always surprised when she sees me recording a reel for Instagram, which is basically a bit-sized clip of the podcast, of the video podcast because she knows how shy I am, I am sometimes. For my professional social media accounts, for me, it's work, and I like doing it. I really like my job, but I never post on my personal Instagram account, for example. The last post I posted was two years ago, and it was a picture with you, my mum, my sister, at Christmas. Because I don't really see the point sometimes. But you are quite lately in Valencia with the new setting, you take more pictures. Well, someone else takes a picture and then you...
[00:25:09.190] - Oliver (Host)
My personal trainer takes photos and then uploads them. I don't know what the word is because it's not retweet, but repost -
[00:25:15.623] - César (Guest)
Share.
[00:25:16.640] - Oliver (Host)
Reshare them on my story. So yeah, it's been a bit of like... I hate myself, but body progress photos. But as I was saying, I think I'm quite open with With my personal life, I think I have very little filter.
[00:25:34.590] - César (Guest)
You're an over-sharer.
[00:25:36.200] - Oliver (Host)
I'm definitely an over-sharer. But I think the thing is that with your friends, or even if it's just someone you've met, you have total control. Whereas I think the thing that scares me about the internet is that once you've put something there, you totally lose control. Forever.
[00:25:51.830] - César (Guest)
I'm aware of that. That's why, for example, if I ever post something on my private social media, I never I don't post pictures of someone, or I don't even say or tell stories about someone I know until I ask them for permission. Many, many times I pulled my mind, my dad and my sister, saying, Would you mind if I say this story that happened to us for this anecdote, even if it's something very silly, because I think it's important to... They might not want to... I ask you many times, Do you mind if I say this? And you're like, "No, I don't want you to say this."
[00:26:28.880] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, it's true.
[00:26:30.860] - César (Guest)
Yeah, or things like posting pictures of kids, my cousins, little cousins, something like that. I'm always very, very private.
[00:26:43.420] - Oliver (Host)
But it's funny because a lot of people in your family, I think in general, are not as private about that thing. But I know that it's not just me. Clearly, it's something from my parents, this, because my sister is insistent that no one posts any photos of her children at all.
[00:26:58.360] - César (Guest)
I think it's fair enough, to be Yeah, of course I do. I would be the same as a parent, I think. Especially now with AI. There has been an ad where two parents go to the cinema thinking they're going to see a film, and they see a film of their daughter when she's grown up. It was like a clip created with AI with all the pictures that they had shared on the internet.
[00:27:39.670] - Oliver (Host)
Is it supposed to be a horror advert?
[00:27:42.130] - César (Guest)
Yeah, something like that.
[00:27:43.000] - Oliver (Host)
How interesting. I find that really interesting. I mean, the thing is, though, in this particular context of this mask, I think that there's the possibility that it will be a bit embarrassing in, like, six months if I decide, actually, I'm totally fine with showing my face.
[00:28:00.510] - César (Guest)
Exactly.
[00:28:01.470] - Oliver (Host)
I'll be like, Why?
[00:28:03.080] - César (Guest)
Why did I do that?
[00:28:04.610] - Oliver (Host)
It has the scope to be vaguely amusing from that perspective.
[00:28:10.330] - César (Guest)
Another thing I actually wanted to bring up is the difference for people who does things publicly or on the internet.
[00:28:19.320] - Oliver (Host)
The people who do.
[00:28:20.540] - César (Guest)
Thank you. A very basic mistake.
[00:28:25.240] - Oliver (Host)
A1. No, it's one that I think people do that mistake.
[00:28:29.860] - César (Guest)
Do your native speakers do it? No.
[00:28:31.670] - Oliver (Host)
I don't think so, but I think that... I think I actually have the same problem as Spanish sometimes in reverse, so no judgement here. Okay. You looked at the camera. Judgement there, yes. Okay, lovely. Well, I think that we're probably on for cutting it off here. Yeah. So thank you for tolerating this.
[00:28:57.970] - César (Guest)
You're very welcome.
[00:28:58.740] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Should I relax now? Much better. No, it stays on. The mask stays on.
[00:29:05.020] - Oliver (Host)
I get it off.
[00:29:06.010] - Oliver (Host)
Please don't take off my mask.
[00:29:07.730] - César (Guest)
High five.
[00:29:10.300] - Oliver (Host)
Well, thank you, César. And until next time.
[00:29:15.630] - César (Guest)
See you next time.
[00:29:16.370] - Oliver (Host)
We've got to see how when I do next week's episode on mad cow disease, I managed to maintain anonymity for that. I'm not going to wear a cow mask. So thank you very much, César. Bye-bye.
Comments