Transcript:
[00:00:00.000] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I'm the host of this podcast, and I'm here again with César. And today we're going to be discussing an episode about disappointments.
[00:00:14.940] - Oliver (Host)
But before we get there, I wanted to let you know that the transcript is available for this and all of our episodes, free of charge, online at www.morethanalanguage.com. You'll probably also heard a mini advert before this episode about the free ebooks that are now available on our website. In each episode of the podcast for the next few weeks, at the end, I'm going to try to include a very short tip on how you could use these ebooks to help you with your English learning. So hang on to the end of the episode to make sure you get that tip.
[00:00:53.660] - Oliver (Host)
As I said before, this is an episode about disappointments, about disappointed expectations. As you'll see, I managed to be disappointed by many things. Hopefully, listener, you won't be disappointed by this episode. Hopefully instead, you'll love it and you'll subscribe and you'll share it with all your English-learning friends.
[00:01:15.360] - Oliver (Host)
In my first week in Valencia, César and I decided to go to the cinema. This is something we do quite often. It's a nice and wholesome, healthy alternative to other things you might do at the weekend. For example, when we were living in London, if I felt that I was needing a break from the British drinking culture, instead of going out for dinner with friends on a Saturday night or going clubbing, we might have gone for a late night showing of a film in our local cinema, where tickets were very cheap. As an entertainment option, I think it's great: good value for money (if your cinema has reasonable prices), you can sneak in your own food and drink, and you often know what getting because of reviews and trailers. With all of this in mind, I was very happy when he suggested that we go to see "Joker Part 2: Folie à deux".
[00:02:12.790] - Oliver (Host)
I'd enjoyed the first film as far as I I remember it, finding it engaging - that is, it held my attention the whole way through - and quite shocking. When I found out the sequel, the second film, would star Lady Gaga as well and that it would be a musical, I was quite intrigued, I was quite curious to see how it would work.
[00:02:35.690] - Oliver (Host)
I know lots of fans were highly sceptical. They had big doubts about the new genre, the new type of film. But I wasn't opposed to, I wasn't against, this genre shift. So when we sat down in the cinema, I was actually pretty excited. I wasn't the most excited I've ever been before a film or anything like that, but I was up for it. I was really quite looking forward good to seeing it. However, I think for the second time in my entire life, I actually walked out of the film during the screening while it was still being shown. César, as you may know from other podcast in the last episode, has a tendency to fall asleep in films. He fell asleep in this one, too. That wasn't a surprise to me, but what did surprise me, what did shock me, was that I actually fell asleep as well. I only slept for about five minutes. But once I'd woken up and found César was also napping next to me, that he'd also fallen fast asleep, I thought, "Okay, this is a sign from God." So I poked him awake and suggested that we leave, and leave we did.
[00:03:46.960] - Oliver (Host)
To walk out of a film or any sort of production is quite a significant thing to do, I feel. You've spent your hard-earned money, the money you spent a long time working to earn, on this piece of entertainment. And even when I haven't really loved something, I've pushed through to the bitter end just for that reason. However, I know that this is probably a silly argument. After all, the money I had spent to see the film was already spent. That money was now lost, whether I stayed to the end or not. So the judgement that I had to make was money notwithstanding, that is, if I forget about the money, would I rather sit here and watch the end of this film, not enjoying it, or would I rather go and do something else, anything else?
[00:04:36.940] - Oliver (Host)
The issue for the film with me is not necessarily that it was a musical. I know many fans of the first film did have that issue with the second one, especially when they felt that the trailers of the film, the previews that they show in the cinema as advertisements before the actual movie is shown, were misleading about the fact that it was a musical.
[00:04:59.150] - Oliver (Host)
But we, Brits, are pretty into musicals in general. We have the West End, near Piccadilly Circus and Soho in London, which rivals New York's Broadway. And in fact, did you know that 'Mamma Mia', the ABBA musical, made into a film starring Amanda Seyfried and Meryl Streep, at the time that it came out, was the highest-grossing film in UK history, overtaking Titanic. That means that it made more money at the box office than any other film in the history of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In 2016, box office revenues from London musicals in general were valued at about £400 million, and they are perhaps unsurprisingly the most popular theatre-based art form in the UK.
[00:05:47.840] - Oliver (Host)
So it's not that it was a musical that was the issue. Although, that said, I personally do often find famous musicals in general slightly disappointing, although my reasoning - my explanation for that - which I'm about to give, doesn't necessarily apply to the Joker. I feel that it's often the case that you go to see a musical in the theatre because it's famous, because you've heard good things, and above all else, because you've heard and enjoyed some of the classic songs from that musical.
[00:06:21.280] - Oliver (Host)
However, in my admittedly limited experience, when I go to see a musical because I've enjoyed a particular song and assumed that the rest of the soundtrack would be equally good, I've often realised that that song was so famous because it was by far the best song from the musical. There are a few exceptions, but often these have come when I've gone to musicals or musical films knowing nothing about it at all. I remember going to see Hairspray in the cinema, a musical about racial segregation in the American city of Baltimore. And hearing some of the offensive lyrics in the first few songs, my jaw just dropped in shock. I had no idea what the musical was about, and so the topics of the songs absolutely floored me. They left me shocked and staggered. However, regardless of that, the songs were actually really excellent. There are so many songs from that musical that I think are really well written and sung just as well. They're catchy, they stick in your mind, and you find yourself humming them for weeks afterwards. In contrast, César once took me to see the Book of Mormon in the West End in London.
[00:07:31.790] - Oliver (Host)
César actually treated me to this trip. That means he paid for the tickets. He was very, very excited to see this musical. He'd always wanted to go, but when it first came out, he couldn't afford it at all. So he saved up and surprised me with these tickets when there was something special that he wanted to celebrate, which was a really lovely thing for him to do. Now, I had always more or less wanted to go to see this musical, and I quite I enjoyed it when we did go. The songs were generally fun. The music was very politically incorrect and quite shocking, and I do enjoy things that make me laugh while scandalising me a little bit, while outraging me a bit. So it was a pleasant night out, but César wasn't happy at all afterwards. It wasn't that he thought the musical was bad, exactly. He just thought it was merely fine. The problem was his expectations had been so high that he was ultimately more disappointed than he would have been if he'd seen the same show while knowing nothing about it in advance. So going back to Joker, what was the problem in the end?
[00:08:42.160] - Oliver (Host)
Well, for me, it was a mix of the different things I've talked about. I didn't have a problem exactly with the fact that it was a musical, but I did have a problem with the fact that I didn't think it was a very good one. It was what we call a 'jukebox musical', one where they take various songs from various artists and throw them together for the musical's soundtrack without writing any original music. For me, the songs that they chose were pretty cliché. They were classic standards, songs that have been sung again and again over decades. I didn't find most of them particularly interesting in this context. And the other thing that I found was that they were actually quite badly sung sometimes. It's often said that musicals use songs express what the characters are feeling when they can't express themselves properly with words. In fact, the director of Joker 2 actually said this about his film himself, too. But in this case, it meant that the songs were in my opinion, and to my memory, often sung in a way that actually made them more underwhelming. Because Joaquin Phoenix's Joker character is so unwell, mentally and physically, throughout the film, his singing is usually pretty ropey, pretty weak, to reflect that too.
[00:10:03.790] - Oliver (Host)
We all know he's a great singer from his Johnny Cash biopic, Walk the Line, but I felt that there was something wrong in a musical if the music is actually unpleasant to listen to. If you've seen Les Misérables, you'll remember Anne Hathaway's Oscar-winning performance as Fantine. Essentially, she won that Oscar because of her performance while singing the classic song "I Dreamed a Dream". Like in Joker 2, her character was desperate, starving, defeated by life, and you could absolutely hear it in her voice. But even though her performance at the beginning of the song is quiet and delivered with a strong element of weakness, it's always gripping, it's always engaging to listen to. It's also just pleasant to hear. I didn't find that to be the case in Joker 2 at all.
[00:10:54.360] - Oliver (Host)
Then my second problem was my expectations going in, and I think this was the bigger for most of its disappointed audience. I thought, given the first film, that this was going to be a gripping and innovative twist on the genre, combining this gritty version of a villain origin story with an unexpected genre, the musical. Instead, it was quite a boring, courtroom, legal process drama with some underwhelming songs thrown in for good measure.
[00:11:25.580] - Oliver (Host)
What's more, for many fans of the first film, part of the reason they felt so annoyed was because they had loved the first film so much and felt that the second was so overwhelming that that disappointment hurt more.
[00:11:39.560] - Oliver (Host)
So, César, specifically, before we talk about these things in general, what did you think of Joker 2?
[00:11:46.660] - César (Guest)
Well, I can only talk about the first 30 minutes I watched, right, because I fell asleep.
[00:11:54.840] - Oliver (Host)
That's bad even for you.
[00:11:56.740] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:11:57.500] - Oliver (Host)
And why did you fall asleep?
[00:12:00.620] - César (Guest)
Well, I mean, there are many different factors. I think the film hasn't received really good critics, right? Really good reviews.
[00:12:09.410] - Oliver (Host)
It hasn't got... "It hasn't received good reviews" from the critics, we would say in English.
[00:12:13.780] - César (Guest)
Okay. Yeah. Thank you.
[00:12:15.400] - Oliver (Host)
Or you could say it's had a "poor critical reception".
[00:12:20.350] - César (Guest)
And in addition to that...
[00:12:22.220] - Oliver (Host)
Sorry, I've got one more thing to say on that. You can say - editing the pronunciation to be a little bit more French - you can say "a critique", it's like some comment on something.
[00:12:34.330] - César (Guest)
A critique is like a review.
[00:12:36.230] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, or, kind of, some kind of comment that criticises or expresses an opinion on something.
[00:12:43.120] - César (Guest)
Exactly. And by the way, listen, don't forget to leave a review!
[00:12:47.260] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, very nice.
[00:12:48.200] - César (Guest)
Of our podcast.
[00:12:50.680] - Oliver (Host)
Okay.
[00:12:51.820] - César (Guest)
The film hasn't been received very well, right? Also, we were really tired when we went to the cinema, which didn't help either. We both fell asleep, which is very unusual for you. It's more useful for me. I was disappointed because I really, really enjoyed the first film, Joker number one. I remember, I think we watched it, we went to see it in Bath, in the UK.
[00:13:26.100] - Oliver (Host)
To be honest, it's funny because I remember that I liked the film, but I don't remember that much about it. You know that I actually do generally remember quite a lot about films. But I have to say that that one, I remember feeling, "Oh, wow, I thought that was really good." But it hasn't stuck in my mind very well.
[00:13:43.820] - César (Guest)
Interesting. Then I saw it as well with my family in Spanish. I've seen it several times. And also the Lady Gaga addition to the second part, it was something I was really excited about. I think it didn't that we watched it in Spanish. It was really weird seeing Lady Gaga dubbed in Spanish as well, for me, at least. Yes, the music was good, but it wasn't something spectacular in my case. But it happens a lot with films in general, when there's a huge hype, there's big expectations about the film, and then you see it and you're like, "Okay, this is not what I was expecting." But that's life.
[00:14:34.350] - Oliver (Host)
Is that something, well, is that life? Is that something that has happened to you many times? Do you often walk out of things?
[00:14:40.980] - César (Guest)
Yeah. We have a saying in Spanish that says, "Segundas partes nunca fueron buenas." And then, can you translate that into English?
[00:14:52.150] - Oliver (Host)
"Second parts were never good." Yeah.
[00:14:54.160] - César (Guest)
And also we have another saying that says, "Nunca vuelvas al lugar en que fuiste feliz".
[00:15:02.170] - Oliver (Host)
"Never return to the place where you were once happy, where you were happy." That's fine, but that's very sequel-specific, no?
[00:15:10.040] - César (Guest)
Well, yeah, but I think many times, because why do you have expectations about something? And why do you get disappointed? Because you expect something, either because you have experienced that in your life or someone else has told you about that place, that film, that restaurant that you have to try. And then you go and you are disappointed because your expectations don't match the reality.
[00:15:37.750] - Oliver (Host)
I think, yeah, they're two different things there, aren't they? There's one that is your expectations are high because of prior experience, and the other one is your expectations are high because of someone else's opinion. And I suppose with the first one, I do get that because it's something where when you know something is coming out and they build up the hype, they want you to get excited. And then you see final product and you're like, "Oh, well, that's a bit disappointing." Then, of course, yeah, that is disappointing. It is something that happens famously with sequels. In Scream 2, because as you know, I'm a big fan of the Scream series, they actually have a kind of meta conversation. "Meta" means that it's almost self-referential because they're in a sequel talking about how bad sequels are.
[00:16:24.960] - César (Guest)
Really?
[00:16:25.150] - Oliver (Host)
They have a conversation about how the sequel is never as good as the first one. Some of the characters offer examples from their experience where they think that the sequel is actually better. But in most cases, people think that the sequel is worse. I think sometimes when the sequels do succeed, I think sometimes it's actually because they don't try to return to the same place as the first one. So for example, we watched recently Alien Romulus, and to prepare for watching that, we had watched Alien and then Aliens.
[00:16:58.690] - César (Guest)
Yeah, well, I actually fell asleep in the second one.
[00:17:02.080] - Oliver (Host)
But most people love the second one. And it's a good example of a film where the sequel, arguably, is as good as the first one, but it's a totally different kind of film. And so, maybe, you know, it's a different director, it's a different film, and maybe they learned from that Spanish expression saying, Don't return to where you were happy.
[00:17:20.720] - César (Guest)
Exactly.
[00:17:21.450] - Oliver (Host)
They don't try to replicate the success of the first one because that is so much less likely to work. In terms of walking out, we went to go and see another film recently. So this is becoming another film episode. We went to go and see The Substance, which we didn't walk out of.
[00:17:39.550] - César (Guest)
No, we actually enjoyed the experience pretty much.
[00:17:43.040] - Oliver (Host)
We stayed to the bitter end, the bloody end. And lots of other people, apparently, did walk out.
[00:17:50.190] - César (Guest)
Oh, really?
[00:17:50.850] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah.
[00:17:51.200] - César (Guest)
I guess apprehensive people or people didn't like it, and then that's why they walked out. Why?
[00:17:58.180] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I think because it was - again, I think maybe this talks about expectations as well, because my expectation of what the film would be like was quite different from what I got from the trailers. There is a lot of gore. There's a lot of blood. There's a lot of violence, or not so much violence, but lots of 'body horror' in the film.
[00:18:22.510] - César (Guest)
It's a horror film.
[00:18:24.250] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, it's a horror film. I thought it would be much more psychological. There were psychological elements, but I thought it would entirely psychological when there was actually quite a lot of blood. Have you ever been tempted to walk out of a film because of that kind of element, because there's too much gore, because you find it in poor taste, that is in some way disgusting? Did you find The Substance disgusting? Have you ever found a film so disgusting that you have thought, "I want to leave"?
[00:18:50.260] - César (Guest)
So many questions. No, I've never thought about walking out because I was thinking that the film is too disgusting or bloody. Because, you know, when you go to see a horror film, deep down want you want to be is scared, disgusted, and things like that. So what I do very often in horror films is cover my eyes or closing my eyes, if I don't want to watch something, because it is true that I'm the typical person that then at night I might be like, I wish I could sleep with the light on. I've always been, I was really, really scared of darkness when I was little, and I don't particularly enjoy horror films nowadays. Many times you are like, "Let's watch a horror film." And I was like, "No, I'm not in the mood." I need to be really cheerful in order to watch a horror film. And I don't think in general, I've never walked out apart from The Joker Part 2. I've never walked out from another film, I think. I remember with a very, very, very famous film. What is it? Like an Oscar winner film, Les Misérables, "the miserable ones".
[00:20:09.440] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I mentioned it in my speech.
[00:20:11.310] - César (Guest)
I watched it in Spain with my dad. So it was completely, it was musical. I think there were three phrases spoken. The rest of the film is completely sung with songs, really good songs. In Spain, people weren't expecting that. They thought it was going to be a musical. There were going to be some songs, but also some dialogue in Spanish. But not the whole film was done with subtitles.
[00:20:41.040] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I remember feeling the same way about Evita.
[00:20:44.630] - César (Guest)
Oh, OK.
[00:20:45.060] - Oliver (Host)
That I was really surprised that Evita is entirely sung, basically.
[00:20:49.930] - César (Guest)
So what happened? People were walking out of the cinema, the screen. And it was actually really awkward.
[00:20:59.700] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Yeah. There's something that we've been to see recently, and I can't remember what it is, but people kept walking out, and it does, it makes me feel uncomfortable, I think, especially if it's a theatre production rather than a cinema.
[00:21:12.750] - César (Guest)
Yeah, it's more violent, no?
[00:21:14.700] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Well, "violent" is quite strong, but yeah, it's much more awkward. If you're in a theatre experience and people stand up and leave, it's a real judgement. But I suppose that's the point, no? I mean, there have been loads of productions of things over the years, over the centuries, where the public have had quite, you know, aggressively negative reactions. Maybe you feel as a playwright, that that means that you've actually achieved something.
[00:21:45.880] - César (Guest)
Yeah, well, obviously, you have people are reacting, no? I remember watching a stand-up comedy, but it was a very famous guy, very famous stand-up comedian in Valencia, and it I was in a theatre, I was in a bar, and a few people stood up and left, and he was actually making fun of them. He was at least making the most of those people leaving.
[00:22:16.300] - Oliver (Host)
Well, over the last year, knowing that we were going to leave London, we've put more effort into going to see different productions and things like that, haven't we? Thinking back to those, for example, like the Book of Mormon that I mentioned, where you were very disappointed, and then other productions where we went in with zero expectations because I found, I downloaded some app, didn't I? And just found all of these productions either on the West End or West End adjacent, just off West End, where the tickets were available for like £20 instead of the £70 or £80 or more that you can spend on a musical. And because the ticket prices were so low and our expectations were nonexistent, I actually think we had some really great times in those places, in those productions. For example, you may remember going to see Cruel Intentions and Fangirls. Both of them, just things that we went into knowing very little about what they would be. Obviously, we'd seen the film Cruel Intentions, but we didn't know how the musical would be presented because the film is not a musical. And they were both cheap, and they were both just so much more fun than the much more professional Book of Mormon.
[00:23:35.480] - Oliver (Host)
What do you think?
[00:23:36.670] - César (Guest)
Well, firstly, it's probably because we are not as cultivated.
[00:23:43.660] - Oliver (Host)
Not as cultured.
[00:23:44.490] - César (Guest)
We're not as cultured as other people who are really into the theatre and plays. Obviously, these two plays you mentioned, they were fun to watch, but they're extremely light-hearted. You don't need to know much about 'theatre' to enjoy that experience.
[00:24:03.280] - Oliver (Host)
It's true, it's true. Although actually, we also went into two more cultural plays this year as well. We went to see Medea, an ancient Greek...reimagining of an ancient Greek drama.
[00:24:15.540] - Oliver (Host)
I kind of...snoozed, in that one.
[00:24:18.710] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, how could you have snoozed? Firstly, it was very intense. The audience is only three or four rows deep. And also, it's like an hour long.
[00:24:30.360] - César (Guest)
And also, we were standing up.
[00:24:32.620] - Oliver (Host)
That's true. And you're standing. You're like, kind of leaning against the mini-stool. That's true. And, oh well, you're definitely, you're gonna - I think you were even less impressed by the second cultural offering this year, which was The Crucible.
[00:24:47.490] - César (Guest)
That was Salem, right?
[00:24:48.590] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, that was the one based in Salem.
[00:24:50.410] - César (Guest)
Yeah, that was difficult to understand as well, which doesn't help.
[00:24:54.620] - Oliver (Host)
No.
[00:24:55.160] - César (Guest)
To follow the plot.
[00:24:56.350] - Oliver (Host)
You had a -
[00:24:57.050] - César (Guest)
to understand what's going on.
[00:24:58.150] - Oliver (Host)
There was a language barrier issue there, whereas I thought that that was amazing. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed both of those plays, whereas I'm not normally that into plays.
[00:25:08.640] - César (Guest)
We're going to watch next week a play in Valencia, in Valencian, the local language, that- which you are learning.
[00:25:21.560] - Oliver (Host)
So,m I have no idea what else to say now. That's pretty much it. I think this has been a shit episode. So, audience -
[00:25:30.010] - César (Guest)
You should leave that.
[00:25:31.450] - Oliver (Host)
I will.
[00:25:32.820] - César (Guest)
Brutal honesty.
[00:25:37.180] - Oliver (Host)
And, um, it's almost like a 'meta' discussion of disappointment. When I wrote this, I thought it was going to be really good, and I don't think it is.
[00:25:45.450] - César (Guest)
Yeah, probably the same happened with Lady Gaga when she read the script.
[00:25:49.540] - Oliver (Host)
I bet it is, I bet it is. I bet when she read that, she thought it was going to be like, searing, harrowing, and people would leave the cinema in tears. Which some people have, but for the wrong reasons.
[00:26:02.500] - César (Guest)
Yeah. Well, her acting was spotless.
[00:26:06.150] - Oliver (Host)
She was the best thing about that film. I feel like-
[00:26:09.960] - César (Guest)
And Joaquin's as well.
[00:26:11.160] - Oliver (Host)
Joaquin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was good. I think that, I don't know, maybe we sound like fan boys, but I think that Lady Gaga actually was really good. But she has been the best thing, I think, in everything that she's done so far. Well, we wish you the best, Lady Gaga.
[00:26:27.960] - César (Guest)
She's probably not listening to this episode, right? Not to this episode, but in general.
[00:26:33.150] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, well, it would be odd for Lady Gaga. You know, she is Italian [referencing the "I'm Italian" meme].
[00:26:37.420] - César (Guest)
Well, you never know because she might be, like, listening to every single podcast, you know - she might be typing on Spotify, "Joker", "Disappointment", and this episode might come up. Now I feel bad. What if she-
[00:26:52.010] - Oliver (Host)
If any celebrity were to do that, I think it would be her. And in addition, maybe she's preparing for a role as a British person, and she['s] randomly choosing British English podcasts to model her accent. I think the number of times that we have referred to celebrities listening to this podcast or the Spanish one, and obviously none ever have and none ever will...
[00:27:17.970] - César (Guest)
I'm sure, I'm sure Dua Lipa listens to the Spanish one.
[00:27:21.840] - Oliver (Host)
She's very low-key. She's not the kind of person that would reach out.
[00:27:27.680] - César (Guest)
Yeah...
[00:27:28.610] - Oliver (Host)
Anyway, I think we've embarrassed ourselves enough. I probably will leave all of this in because I don't know what else I will put in the podcast. Thank you very much, listener, for listening. I did promise you a tip for the eBook. The tip that we're recommending from the eBook for this week is something that César calls Shadowing. César actually uses this podcast to shadow.
[00:27:50.170] - César (Guest)
I don't call it, it's not something I came up with. It's like something existing already.
[00:27:54.900] - Oliver (Host)
It's trademarked "Spanish Language Coach", exclusive technique, yeah, shadowing, which is basically where you listen to an accent or some content that you want to be able to reproduce yourself. And you basically just take it line by line. Maybe you write down something that you listen to and then you repeat it back. You record yourself, which is something that we really recommend you doing, recording yourself over a period of a few months to see how you're sounding. César, weirdly, actually uses me speaking in this podcast to shadow myself to try to improve his accent. So it is something that he does genuinely do himself.
[00:28:40.300] - César (Guest)
I do.
[00:28:40.890] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you again, listener and please have a look at those eBooks online. And until next time, and I promise that I will try to make next week's episode less of a disappointment to us all.
[00:28:56.350] - César (Guest)
Thank you.
[00:28:57.110] - Oliver (Host)
Thank you. Bye-bye!
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