Transcript + vocabulary list + exercise:
[00:00:02.060] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond, a new intermediate-level podcast for learners of English as a foreign language.
[00:00:14.790] - Oliver (Host)
If there are any words or phrases that you can't quite catch, that you can't quite understand, in today's episode, don't worry. We publish every week a free transcript, which is available at www.morethanalanguage.com.
[00:00:32.320] - Oliver (Host)
What experiences in life are genuinely shared between all people? There is a quip, a witty remark or humorous saying, that there are only two certainties in life: death and taxes. That may be true, but it's not all that we have in common. Every person who has ever lived, at least so far, necessarily has had a mother and a father. But with parents, the universal experience of parenthood ends there at creation. From the second you're born, your experience with your parents is totally unique. Whether you have great or awful parents is a matter of luck, and many different details feed into that. It's notoriously hard to overcome bad childhood experiences and the effect that your parents have in your later life is truly seismic, truly life-changing. I think it's a common thing to joke with your siblings and to reminisce, to remember, about the terrible and traumatic things that your parents did to you. No one escapes their childhood totally unharmed after all! And it's my opportunity now to judge my mother to her face, to set out all of my complaints, and to take my mother to task.
[00:01:42.830] - Oliver (Host)
But I am very lucky to have had a pretty great experience growing up. For this episode, therefore, I wanted to talk about, and to, one of the most important people in my life, my mother.
[00:01:56.170] - Oliver (Host)
My mum grew up in Glasgow, Scotland, in an ordinary working-class family. Her mum was a clerk, essentially a kind of junior secretary, and her dad was an electrician. She did well at school. Her two older brothers were amazing mathematicians, but my mum was an all-rounder, scoring very strong marks across the board. In other words, she did very well in all her subjects and left school with excellent grades. Her first job was working as a technician in a government laboratory, but I think she soon felt bored in Scotland and the UK, and like so many of us, she developed the urge to travel. What was the easiest way to do that as a young woman in the '70s? She decided to retrain as an air stewardess, which she says was a much more glamorous job then than it is nowadays, unfortunately, with paid expenses and more luxurious conditions. She travelled all over the world. And after spending many years based in the Middle East, she returned to Scotland, where she met my dad in an unimpressive bar in Glasgow, and soon moved down to leafy Hertfordshire, where I brought up.
[00:03:01.570] - Oliver (Host)
I've always been very close to my mum. You could have called me a bit of a "mummy's boy". However, I find Google's definition of the term to be a little bit brutal. A mummy's boy, according to Google, is a man seen as having an unhealthy dependence on his mother at an age at which he is expected to be self-reliant. Wow, what a harsh definition! Hopefully, this is not the case for me, though I guess we'll soon find out whether my mum would say it's fair. One of the reasons why I would generally have to acknowledge myself as a mummy's boy, despite that cruel definition, is because I've always thought that my mum was a really great listener and a true confidante. That is, she was someone I felt I could trust. I could tell her absolutely anything, and she would listen carefully, give thoughtful advice, and then, very importantly, keep it to herself. Looking back now, I don't know how she had the patience to listen so much. When she'd pick me and my siblings up from school, we would sit and just chat for hours in the evening while she did all the other tasks to take care of us: cooking, cleaning, ironing.
[00:04:08.720] - Oliver (Host)
She would listen patiently, hour after hour, about all the problems we were having at school, with our friends, with our teachers. I don't want to give the very false impression, though, that my mother was this delicate, gentle woman, tenderly guiding me to come out of my shell. In reality, she was quite fearsome. When I was at school, all the other kids knew who my mother was. In my well-to-do home county's town in South-East England, my mother really stood out. Whenever she came to watch me take part in a sports competition and to cheer for me, her broad - that is, very strong - Scottish accent, now softened from years living here in England, would blare out above all the other mothers' rather more restrained shouts of support. So everyone knew who my mother was, and lots of the other kids, and maybe some of the parents, were scared of her. Even now, my mum's no-nonsense parenting style is infamous among my friends, and they're often excited to meet the women they've heard so much about. Back then, it was the '90s, so gentle parenting wasn't really on the cards. Instead, tough love was the order of the day; tough love was the typical style of parenting.
[00:05:20.580] - Oliver (Host)
My mum's form of encouragement was quite direct. Classic phrases my siblings and I heard growing up included, "You need to take a long, hard look in the mirror," whenever I showed a characteristic that she thought I should be ashamed of, which was quite often. I also regularly heard, "You need to hear some difficult home truths," before delivering some blistering assessment of my failures. I also lived in fear of being smacked, although her terrifying countdown of three, two, one was significantly worse than any light smacking I did actually ever suffer. Now, I'm not looking to make light of, to play down, to minimise, the genuinely difficult home lives of many children, including nowadays. Lots of children grow up in terrible circumstances, never able to relax and always scared. And I actually see the repercussions of that every day as a teacher. It goes without saying that this is a terrible burden for those kids. And it's deeply unfair because there's absolutely no doubt of the benefits of a happy childhood with supportive parents. I was tremendously lucky growing up because I was fortunate to have a mother that cared so much about me and my brothers and sisters.
[00:06:29.280] - Oliver (Host)
My mum could occasionally be quite harsh with me, but honestly, I sometimes really needed that. I think it's really beneficial to call a spade a spade, that is, to tell the honest unvarnished truth. And behind that tough love approach, I never had any doubt at all that there was an extraordinarily strong foundation of commitment, generosity, and patience. My friends can't believe the things that I discussed with my mother. They shriek in horror at hearing the level of personal the details that I go into with her. But since I've become a proper adult, our relationship has shifted. Now we go out for dinner or drinks and we just talk. We will never be equals. She will always be my mother, but she is now almost a friend rather than just a parent. The reason we have that relationship now is because she cared so much when I was little.
[00:07:21.420] - Oliver (Host)
It's very easy for us to blame our parents for any problems we have when we are adults. But the reality is, it's so easy for us to forget that this is our parents' first and only attempt at life as well. My mother didn't do everything perfectly, but my God, I'm glad that of all of the women in the world, it was her who became my mother.
[00:07:40.980] - Oliver (Host)
So, Mum, welcome to the podcast. My first question is, which of your children do you love the most and why is it me?
[00:07:50.200] - Mum (Guest)
Now, are the others going to be listening to this?
[00:07:53.110] - Oliver (Host)
It depends on them, really, doesn't it? At least one of them does, right? All the way from Australia. Hello!
[00:07:59.300] - Mum (Guest)
It's you, don't tell the others.
[00:08:01.430] - Oliver (Host)
Exactly - a very common phrase as well I heard growing up. So obviously this episode is about, you know, parents, children. I have no real script or idea for where we're going to go. I do have some questions, but it might be - kind of - ironically interesting to begin with this question. You often tell me that I shouldn't have kids, that it's absolutely not worth it. But then you also tell me that having kids is the best thing you've ever done in your life. So which is it? And can you explain that contradiction a little bit more?
[00:08:34.130] - Mum (Guest)
Well, it's both, really. Having children, suddenly you develop an Achilles heel that you don't have when you don't have children.
[00:08:42.320] - Oliver (Host)
Like a terrible weakness.
[00:08:43.370] - Mum (Guest)
A terrible weakness. You've got a weakness that you never, you didn't know you had. When they're happy, you're happy. When they're upset, you're really upset. And that's quite a burden to carry. And it costs you a lot of money, too.
[00:09:05.770] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, that's true, isn't it? I mean, you yourself have had four children, but you've been mother and stepmother in total to seven.
[00:09:13.750] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah, that's true.
[00:09:14.730] - Oliver (Host)
And It's incredibly expensive, right?
[00:09:17.000] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:09:17.380] - Oliver (Host)
And that is, I think, definitely one of the advantages that I see in not having kids is the fact that I will have a nicer lifestyle. But why do so many people have children then, do you think?
[00:09:29.520] - Mum (Guest)
I just I think it's an urge that takes over. Common sense goes out the door, and it's an urge that takes over.
[00:09:38.570] - Oliver (Host)
I suppose that all it takes is a moment of madness, right? And then it's not like you can change your mind. You've got the child forever.
[00:09:46.860] - Mum (Guest)
I think it's also a thing that, it's something that everybody gets a boyfriend at the same time. Everyone gets engaged at the same time. Everyone gets married at the same time. Everyone has a first baby at the same time. So everybody does all of these things without thinking about it. I'm always amazed that everyone meets Mr. Right all at the same time. And I think, how can that be? How can that be? And I think that's what it is. And it's funny, as I get older, I notice that I'm going through different phases with my friends, that we're all getting new knees at the same time. And all of our friends are dying at the same time. So I think a lot of people don't give a lot of thought into having children. They just do it because everyone else is doing it.
[00:10:41.200] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I guess it's necessary at the end of the day.
[00:10:43.230] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah, I just think it's something that's... It just becomes overwhelming.
[00:10:50.390] - Oliver (Host)
The pressure?
[00:10:51.140] - Mum (Guest)
Not even the pressure, the longing. You don't think past the baby books. You don't think past what it's going to be like. You just see yourself with this little baby, and you don't see yourself with a teenager.
[00:11:07.360] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, it's ironic for me, this, because actually, you are one of the people I know who thinks the most. You overthink everything. I don't think that you agonise, you worry, particularly, but you think about all the possible permutations of something. So it's weird. I always find it hard with you because obviously, I haven't gone into a lot of detail about your younger years, but you did some things when you were younger, like your first marriage. It was so impulsive that it's so hard for me to square, to reconcile with the woman you are today.
[00:11:39.640] - Mum (Guest)
Me too, me too...me too!
[00:11:42.390] - Oliver (Host)
And I always, I don't know whether that's beca- Obviously, as I said in my little speech, it's your first time at life as well. But I haven't seen you have that growth over the 35 years that I've been alive. From the first memories that I have of you, you've been that same, kind of, decisive woman. No holds barred, no prisoners taken: "this is the right way to do things". It's weird for me that in your 20s, you did things that if I did them in my 20s, you'd have gone ballistic with me. You'd have been so, so angry.
[00:12:16.390] - Mum (Guest)
That's true. I suppose it was part of the fact that I made up my own mind. I never, ever discuss things with other people. I decide what I want to do, and I do it.
[00:12:26.800] - Oliver (Host)
So, I mean, you were close to your mother, though.
[00:12:28.670] - Oliver (Host)
Did you discuss these things with her beforehand, or did you present it as a fait accompli, something that you'd already done and it was finished, it couldn't be changed?
[00:12:39.860] - Mum (Guest)
It was a fait accompli. I was close, but in a different sort of way. I was probably less dependent on my mother. I mean, I didn't ask my mother for advice. I would phone her up and talk to her about what was happening in my life. But I didn't go to her for advice because I, sort of, made up my mind. I think when I was 21, I was far more grown up than today's 21-year-olds.
[00:13:07.440] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, I mean, everyone says that, don't they? I mean, you've got four children. We're not going to go through the names and everything, but you've got a son, a daughter, a son and a son, and I am number three there. Which of your children would you say most mirrors the relationship you had with your mother?
[00:13:26.930] - Mum (Guest)
I speak to all of you very, very frequently.
[00:13:32.940] - Oliver (Host)
Virtually every day, right?
[00:13:33.860] - Mum (Guest)
Virtually every day. And I have this similar conversations. I mean, some of you give far more details than the others.
[00:13:42.720] - Oliver (Host)
Is that me?
[00:13:43.630] - Mum (Guest)
That's you. But yeah, I would say that I have a friendship with all of you rather than a mother-child relationship, whereas with my mother, I probably had a... She was my mother rather than my friend.
[00:13:57.230] - Oliver (Host)
Did you keep things from her? Did you...You made "editing decisions".
[00:14:02.120] - Mum (Guest)
I edited my life.
[00:14:04.860] - Oliver (Host)
Because I've always been very bad at editing with you, but it's almost like I developed some need to confess all of my thoughts to someone. I think that with César and with you, I do almost no editing at all.
[00:14:22.810] - Oliver (Host)
Then with everyone else in my life, I would say that I do quite a lot of editing, but more for humour than anything else. That is to say, if I'm very upset by something, for example, I try to make it funny, I try to make my friends laugh at me or with me, and I laugh at myself. I make it ridiculous. Whereas with you, I think I just give the honest truth to you. I don't hide my negative emotions. I don't try to dress it up always in the same way.
[00:14:59.880] - Mum (Guest)
I think I'd rather know the full truth than the edited edition.
[00:15:03.460] - Oliver (Host)
But it's weird that as well, because, for example, you didn't give the unedited edition to your mother. We've had conversations about health where I said, if I contracted some terrible disease, would you want to know? And you were like, "Of course I would want to know!" But you absolutely wouldn't tell me if you had some terrible disease. If you were dying, I would only find out basically at the funeral.
[00:15:28.520] - Mum (Guest)
I think I probably don't like to worry people. I think that's the truth of the matter. I don't like being dependent on people, and I don't like to worry people. I don't like being the centre of attention. I think that's probably the truth of it. I always think that the worst thing anybody would ever say about me is to say...
[00:15:51.670] - Oliver (Host)
Is it somehow feeling sorry for you?
[00:15:53.760] - Mum (Guest)
Poor.
[00:15:54.600] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, poor, poor.
[00:15:56.400] - Mum (Guest)
I'd hate to have that adjective put in front of me. Yeah.
[00:16:00.030] - Oliver (Host)
It doesn't surprise me that you would say that.
[00:16:01.630] - Mum (Guest)
I mean, that's the worst thing somebody could say to me, it would be if they were talking about me, to say, "poor".
[00:16:11.470] - Oliver (Host)
Just for the benefit of our listener, the word poor has two meanings. One means not having a lot of money, and then the other one is if you feel sorry for someone. So you can say, "Oh, poor Oliver." And that doesn't mean that Oliver is broke, that he's got no money, but it means that you feel sorry for Oliver, that you pity Oliver. But returning to what you were saying, Mum, I think that for me, I don't think that that would be the thing that I would hate most. But for me, the thing I would hate most would be, would be linked, and I think that you would hate this as well.
[00:16:48.210] - Oliver (Host)
I would hate for people to feel sorry for me if I felt like it was based on an incorrect analysis of my situation. I hate it when people think something about me, which is just not based on reality. When they've got a little bit of information and then they assume a lot of different things, that really irritates me.
[00:17:09.210] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
[00:17:13.590] - Oliver (Host)
So going back to your mum a little bit, were there things in your relationship with her - because as I said, you had a really good relationship with her, although in a different way from us - but are there things that you have consciously thought, I'm going to do differently with my kids?
[00:17:31.000] - Mum (Guest)
I suppose I would be more truthful about life. I feel I grew up unprepared for life.
[00:17:45.330] - Oliver (Host)
Oh, interesting.
[00:17:46.440] - Mum (Guest)
Because I never, ever heard my parents argue. I mean, the first time I heard my father raise his voice to my mother, I was 21. And it was over something really trivial. It wasn't even an argument. It was just he raised his voice to her and I was just dumbfounded, totally dumbfounded. And they both turned and looked at me and said, "What's wrong?" I said, "I have never, ever heard you raise voices to each other."
[00:18:19.370] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, that's really interesting. I think we argued a lot when I was growing up. I don't even think in a negative way, necessarily. I mean, we had arguments about so many stupid things, pop culture stuff, way too much. But the idea that I would have gotten to 21 without hearing you and dad shouting each other is just absolutely laughable. I feel very much at home - when I go out for dinner with friends, couples, and they argue with each other, sometimes I turn to César and I say, "It's like being at home." Because I'm so used to hearing arguments. So it's weird that you never heard that. And then into your marriage, you brought that.
[00:18:54.440] - Mum (Guest)
Well, I never heard it. I suppose I was naive. I automatically assumed that people got married and they lived happily ever after.
[00:19:04.330] - Oliver (Host)
Were your parents happy, would you say?
[00:19:06.020] - Mum (Guest)
I had no idea. I mean, I have no idea. They probably had difficulties. And for reasons in their own backgrounds, they would have... I don't think it was an option for people to split up then anyway. But my father was maybe sometimes unfair to my mother, I don't know. But I look back now on the people who lived round about us when I was growing up, and I see things that... At the time, I just assumed that people were married and they were happy together. And then, I mean, one of the neighbours, you know, his wife died, and within months, he'd remarried someone else, which makes me think...hmm, maybe that wasn't as it all appeared.
[00:20:00.480] - Oliver (Host)
Well, I mean, it's - other people are always a mystery, I suppose, no, because sometimes there's... I mean, it could be that, that things weren't as it appeared, but sometimes people in deep grief need someone.
[00:20:11.720] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah, but it's just I - just, I just I always feel that I grew up unprepared for adulthood, and I thought, I won't make that mistake.
[00:20:23.070] - Oliver (Host)
That's interesting. So do you think that you prepared me well for adulthood? The best you could.
[00:20:31.280] - Mum (Guest)
The best I could.
[00:20:32.380] - Oliver (Host)
With the raw materials.
[00:20:35.450] - Mum (Guest)
Did I prepare you well for adulthood? I don't think you grew up with a glossy attitude towards it. I think you knew what it was about.
[00:20:48.430] - Oliver (Host)
Do you know, I think the other thing as well is that part of the reality of me telling you everything without editing is that you probably have a very honest point of view of me. But quite often colleagues or friends will say things to me that I'm staggered that that is their opinion of me. Colleagues tell me all the time - like, I've had people at work come up to me and say, "Oh, you're always so calm, so relaxed! Nothing fazes you. Nothing gets you down. You've always got a smile." I obviously feel like I'm oscillating over a precipice or something, swaying on the edge of a mental breakdown. And I think that maybe if I did the editing for you that you did for your mother, you'd probably think, wow, "He's just so... you know, he knows what he's doing and he's carrying on with his life in a really direct way." Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I see what you're saying. You really do know so much about my mentality. Well, actually talking about that knowledge of your children, what is it like as a mother seeing your children grow and change the entirety of their lives. With partners, they join you at a certain stage. You know, I met César when I was 26, but he never is going to see my childhood. Do you see what I mean? Whereas you've seen us from the beginning. What is it like?
[00:22:16.720] - Mum (Guest)
It's just quite amazing how you... Well, you've changed totally from being a little boy to an adult. You're totally different.
[00:22:27.870] - Oliver (Host)
In what way?
[00:22:29.900] - Mum (Guest)
Well, you were always very shy and quiet, and now you're quite assertive and confident.
[00:22:38.560] - Oliver (Host)
Why do you think that is?
[00:22:42.850] - Mum (Guest)
I don't know. Maybe you more more at ease with yourself.
[00:22:47.930] - Oliver (Host)
Interesting. Okay. And my siblings?
[00:22:51.480] - Mum (Guest)
With your sister, I'd say she's the same person now as she was the day she was born.
[00:22:56.190] - Oliver (Host)
And her daughter...
[00:22:57.840] - Mum (Guest)
Her daughter is her daughter. Her daughter is her mother's daughter.
[00:23:01.220] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly the same.
[00:23:01.950] - Mum (Guest)
Exactly the same.
[00:23:03.170] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Because you're a big believer, right, that lots of things are fundamentally genetic, that her difficult, kind of, like... Well, it depends on your perspective. Her go-getting, very assertive I can't think of how to phrase it, but she's charming, but she gets what she wants, right?
[00:23:24.650] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:23:25.010] - Oliver (Host)
Her personality, you think is probably there's a genetic component to that, right?
[00:23:30.550] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:23:32.270] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. What do you hope for us, for your children in the future? So obviously, at some point, you would hope you will die before we do.
[00:23:41.820] - Mum (Guest)
Hopefully. But not too soon.
[00:23:44.270] - Oliver (Host)
Not too soon, hopefully. But I love talking to you about your mum and what she would have thought of you and things like that. What do you hope for, for us?
[00:23:51.930] - Mum (Guest)
I just hope that you're happy.
[00:23:54.040] - Oliver (Host)
What does happiness look like for me?
[00:23:56.410] - Mum (Guest)
Oh, I don't know what happiness looks like. If - I would hope that, I would hope that you all stay with the people that you're with at the moment.
[00:24:04.230] - Oliver (Host)
Because we've been very lucky, haven't we?
[00:24:06.280] - Mum (Guest)
Incredibly lucky. I mean, incredibly lucky. So I would hope that you all remain in your present relationships.
[00:24:14.920] - Oliver (Host)
And it's funny with the relationships as well, because I think that we're all with people that you would never have expected. And maybe even, not for all of us, but maybe you wouldn't have chosen, not once you'd met them, but I mean, on paper. Yeah. If we had presented our current partners on paper and told you this is what we're going to end up with or this is who we're going to end up with, you might have thought, "Huh! That's weird!"
[00:24:39.150] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah, I would say that. But I think you've all made exceedingly good choices, exceedingly good choices.
[00:24:49.440] - Oliver (Host)
Well, that's nice. I mean, César's sitting in the other room, so he can't hear us, but he'll probably be happy when he listens to this podcast then. So there's nothing in particular that you would like to see me do or achieve by the time that I'm your age?
[00:25:02.140] - Mum (Guest)
I'm happy with the fact that you all travel a lot. I mean, I'm happy the fact that you're always all doing something. And my friends say, when I tell my friends what you're all up to, and they'll say, "Wow, your kids live their life to the full." And I think that's good, that's good. I'm happy that you, at different points, have all lived abroad. I think that's important as well.
[00:25:28.170] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. Well, I mean, ultimately, the fact that we can live our lives fully and everything comes down to you, really, doesn't it? So just as a final thing, obviously, thank you very much for being my mother. As I said at the end of my speech, I feel very grateful and very lucky. So obviously, you always feel that way about your own mother, don't you?
[00:25:48.190] - Mum (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:25:48.990] - Oliver (Host)
I can't imagine anyone else being my mother, and I'm glad that it's you. So thank you, listener, for listening to the podcast today. As always, if you've enjoyed this episode, please do share it with your friends who are learning English. Give it a rating on the platform where you listen to the podcast, share, subscribe, etc. Etc. All the usual stuff that people say at the end of podcasts. I look forward to welcoming you back to the next episode. Thank you very much. Just say thank you.
[00:26:21.150] - Mum (Guest)
Thank you! Bye.
[00:26:22.840] - Oliver (Host)
Bye.
Comentarios