Transcript:
[00:00:00.280] - Oliver (Host)
Welcome back to another episode of English and Beyond. My name is Oliver. I'm your host for this podcast that is designed for intermediate to advanced level learners of English as a foreign language. If you enjoy the podcast, please do share it with other people. This helps it to grow and will ensure that I'm in a position to be able to continue to create language learning content in this way.
[00:00:26.080] - Oliver (Host)
But another episode, another shout out to Cristina. By now I think she's earned herself an honorary spot on this podcast's production team. As I mentioned in last week's episode, this is the second episode in a row inspired by her request. Specifically, today's topic is inspired by something Cristina said to me during one of our many conversations about cultural quirks, about cultural oddities. Cristina and I are doing a language exchange at the moment where I help her with her English and she teaches me Valencian. And during this exchange she said she was really curious about the infamous, the notorious British rules of politeness. César and I recently rented a flat in Valencia. Unsurprisingly, since we just moved here, we were very excited about this flat.
[00:01:21.240] - Oliver (Host)
We love the area, we love the flat itself, and we were pretty happy. Even with the price. Prices in Valencia have skyrocketed over the last few years. They've increased rapidly and many Valencians have found themselves in César's position. That is, Valencians who have been living abroad for many years have wanted to return back home to the city and find themselves very shocked by how much more rent costs now than previously. But that is a topic for another day. My Spanish listeners will probably have very strong opinions about it, especially given the protests against the cost of living recently in Spain and the role that foreigners like me, and effectively César, have played in it.
[00:02:06.090] - Oliver (Host)
Cristina was the first friend to come and see the flat, and as soon as she walked in she began going through it with a fine-tooth comb. For those who don't know, this expression means that she inspected everything in great detail. Every room, every corner, every choice we had made. And she had opinions. Lots of opinions. Detailed, very honest, and sometimes quite negative opinions about the layout, the decor, the decoration, and pretty much everything else. Now don't get me wrong, I wasn't upset at all by this.
[00:02:46.950] - Oliver (Host)
I've gotten used to Cristina's directness, and over the last decade I've also grown accustomed to the Spanish way of being refreshingly honest in general. And after all, I'm the guest in this country and so if anyone needs to adapt to someone else's rules of directness, it's me. Whereas in the past, though I may even have been a little bit offended by Cristina's critical comments, now I just found this very frank honesty pretty funny. But although I wasn't in the slightest upset by what she said, the thought did occur to me that this would generally not happen in the UK. And Cristina, who used to live in London, is totally aware of these differences and was laughing about them too. In the uk, a typical British friend visiting your new flat would almost certainly not point out anything negative. Instead, even if they thought it was the ugliest flat they'd ever set foot in in their lives, they'd say, "Oh, isn't it lovely? What a charming home!" This difference in approach goes to the heart of British politeness. British people are often stereotyped as polite, and I think generally good reason. The rules of politeness in Britain are subtle, but they're powerful, shaping virtually all engagements that we have with anyone else, governing everything from how we order drinks to how we queue for the bus.
[00:04:14.420] - Oliver (Host)
Stepping outside of these rules, breaking these rules can result in some very quick, although usually totally silent, judgments about you and your character. And that brings me to a story Cristina told me recently that perfectly illustrates this cultural clash. She had returned to London recently for a visit as a tourist, and she went to a pub to order a drink. Without thinking, she translated directly from Spanish and said, "I want a beer." Now, that might sound totally fine to some of you, depending on your own native language, but in the UK it comes across as quite abrupt, quite direct, to say, 'I want a beer' out of the blue, without context. Apparently, the British waitress gave her a look, a look that said, "Who the hell do you think you are?" In Britain, the correct way to order might be something like, "Could I have a beer, please?" Or if you want to be extra polite, very British, you might even say, "Excuse me, could I please have a beer when you have a moment, if that's all right. Thank you so much." To a British ear, Cristina's directness sounded rude, even though obviously that was never her intention.
[00:05:30.340] - Oliver (Host)
In Spain, for example, you'd simply say, "Ponme una cerveza", which literally means 'put a beer on me' and that's it. No pleases, no excuses, no elaborate phrases. It's efficient, is to the point, and no one considers it rude. If anything, adding too many pleasantries in Spain might come across as strange or insincere, dishonest, like you're faking this overly polite attitude, but you don't really mean it.
[00:05:58.960] - Oliver (Host)
And this story got me thinking about the broader rules of British politeness. One of the most famous examples is queuing. British people apparently love to queue, or at least we're supposedly very good at it. It's not just about waiting your turn, it's supposedly about maintaining order and fairness in a world that easily and quickly becomes chaotic and that therefore makes sense. Why wouldn't you, after all, as a society, try to maintain these rules of fairness and equality? But British politeness goes beyond that and can turn it into something a little bit bizarre and excessive. If someone accidentally bumps into you on the Tube, on the London Metro, the unspoken rule is to apologise, even if you were the one who got hit in the face by someone's elbow.
[00:06:51.420] - Oliver (Host)
So you apologise as if to say, "I'm sorry that my nose got in the way of your arm." It's as if we're all constantly trying to avoid conflict, smoothing over every little bump, literal and figurative, with a quick sorry in this way. And that speaks to the general British overuse of sorry and thank you. If you hand me a cup of tea, I'll probably thank you at least two or three times. In a restaurant, you end up saying thank you virtually every time a waiter or waitress stands near you. And in fact, in my adult life, we've started taking things to even greater extremes. When I was little, it was enough to say 'thank you'; that became 'thanks very much'. And somehow that has now morphed into, that has changed into, 'thank you so, so much'. And then we have the constant apologies. 'Sorry' has now lost all meaning in British English. If we're having a chat and I accidentally interrupt you, I'll say, "Oh, sorry." If you interrupt me, I'll still say, "Oh, sorry!" Most British conversations now just consist of competitions to say sorry and thank you more than the other person. It's almost a reflex, a social lubricant to keep everything running smoothly.
[00:08:05.950] - Oliver (Host)
But here's the twist. As I just implied, is this politeness even real or just a veneer? For all this talk of British politeness, Christina and many others in Spain often see a very different side to us Brits. Think about those British tourists who flock to Spanish holiday destinations like Magaluf or Gran Canaria. If you've ever been to these places, you'll know exactly what I mean: the sunburnt Brits stumbling down the street, shouting, drinking, behaving in ways that are anything but polite to Spanish eyes. This is perhaps the real British character, stripped of its polite facade, of its polite, superficial, surface fakery. I say this with no judgement. I cannot claim to be a saint in this respect. Myself, I recently went to Gran Canaria, for example, where I certainly "enjoyed myself", we can say, in a typical British euphemism, a typically indirect way of saying something. So what's going on here? Are the British actually polite or is it all just an act, a convenient mask that we wear at home to avoid conflict but we throw off, we discard when we're abroad, or the second that we come within two feet of anything alcoholic?
[00:09:25.350] - Oliver (Host)
Personally, I think it's a bit of both. The rules of politeness in Britain are deeply ingrained, they're deeply incorporated into our character, but they're also situational. At home, we stick to the script because it's what's expected of us, but abroad, especially on holiday, we sometimes throw those rules out the window in the name of fun or excess, or possibly as a release from that repressive politeness at home. Ultimately, I don't think British politeness is fake as such, but it is often exaggerated. It's a social tool that we use to avoid confrontation and keep interactions pleasant. In contrast, Spanish directness might seem rude to us Brits, but it's actually about honesty and efficiency. Both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses, and understanding them, experiencing them as well, is one of the joys of living between two cultures. So, listener, what do you think? Do you prefer the British way of endless pleasantries or the Spanish way, of saying exactly what you mean? Let me know by sending an email to oliver@morethanalanguage.com but in the meantime, let's hear from César, a Spanish Brit or a British Spaniard, who may have therefore a unique perspective on the matter.
[00:10:48.570] - Oliver (Host)
So César you've got two passports, you're British and Spanish.
[00:10:53.290] - César (Guest)
Yes, I am, proudly.
[00:10:54.130] - Oliver (Host)
Who's more polite?
[00:10:57.090] - César (Guest)
Well, British people, obviously. I mean, Spanish people. I don't think Spanish people are rude, but we definitely come across as more straightforward. Yeah, more direct. But I love British indirectness, though. As someone who doesn't like very much conflict, it's very easy for me to deal with it. It is true. I think in the short term, in a specific moment of conflict, it's good, it's positive to have this assertive - let's put it that way - assertive way of expressing yourself. But maybe in the long term is worse because you cannot really build relationships or - well, not really. That's a bit strong. But I think British politeness is used mainly with strangers. Right? Not with your relatives or your partner. I think it's more just for social encounters where you don't know the people very well, which is good, I think it creates less friction, it creates less conflicts. So I like it, I really like it. I miss it actually. Like what I told you last week I went to the medical centre to do my registration in Spain and the system didn't work, so people had to queue like in the old times, like back in the day.
[00:12:26.420] - César (Guest)
And so everyone was skipping the queue, basically. And one woman got really angry and she was like, all these old people, jumping the queue, not respecting the queue. And one guy who felt she was talking about him turned around and said to her, "Stop it, I'm not old. First of all, you're very annoying and if you don't stop it, I'm going to slap you in the face". And she replied back saying, like, "You are going to slap me in the face, I'm going to kick your balls, you bloody old man. Blah, blah." And the receptionist at the medical centre was like, "Please can we try to keep it polite", like super relaxed and, but honestly, it felt crazy.
[00:13:16.240] - Oliver (Host)
What I'm hearing is that sober Spaniards sound like drunk Brits in that conversation. Sounds like it could be a transcript from an ordinary British pub.
[00:13:28.170] - César (Guest)
I suppose so.
[00:13:28.400] - Oliver (Host)
Sounds like British people drunk, failing to queue at the bar.
[00:13:31.920] - César (Guest)
That's why Spanish people drink less, I guess - we don't need to reach that level.
[00:13:37.430] - Oliver (Host)
I mean, a lot of the timem, and I think that you said something similar to this, you know, I know that you said in the past that you think British people are non-confrontational and you said yourself that you don't like conflict, you don't like confrontation. But I think that for me that is one of the misunderstandings about British politeness from, from Europeans especially.
[00:14:00.120] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:14:00.620] - Oliver (Host)
And Spaniards, because you know that when, when we have these conversations that on the surface look very polite in Britain, there is still conflict, it's just in a different way.
[00:14:10.584] - César (Guest)
That's true.
[00:14:10.620] - Oliver (Host)
But like, if someone says to me, like it's, it's like the infamous translations of what a British person says and what they mean. You know, if a British person says, "Oh, that piece of work you did for me was really interesting." Any British person listening to that knows they don't mean it was actually interesting, they mean that it was diabolical, and they mean that it was totally nuts and you are going to change it now. So I, you know, I, I think that we still have conflict.
[00:14:37.950] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:14:38.270] - Oliver (Host)
It's just that you guys don't realise that you're in a conflict when a British person -
[00:14:43.200] - César (Guest)
Because no one is shouting.
[00:14:44.470] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, no one's standing there, they're just like, "I think that you should reconsider what you're saying here, Sir", or something like that. You know, that is a very clear message, you know, be quiet, turn around, go away. So there is conflict, it's just different.
[00:14:57.120] - César (Guest)
And actually, actually you're a really good example of that because you're extremely polite, but you play really well during conflict. Like you don't avoid getting in a heated debate, for example. Right. But you keep it polite.
[00:15:14.080] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, like when we were -
[00:15:15.300] - César (Guest)
And you've learned to be even better.
[00:15:17.800] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
[00:15:19.390] - César (Guest)
I think if you do that in different contexts, which is basically being even more polite in a conflict in an argument, people would read it as being passive aggressive and that would annoy way more the person, the other person than if you just shout and move your hands very quickly.
[00:15:40.770] - Oliver (Host)
There's a smugness to it as well, isn't there? There's like a self satisfaction to being very polite and being very calm in the middle of a discussion.
[00:15:50.630] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:15:51.350] - Oliver (Host)
So yeah, I mean, I can imagine that it would irritate people for sure. I mean, as you said in arguments with friends and things like that, I definitely have a different style of argument arguing with strangers and with friends. With friends I think I'm actually quite intense and borderline aggressive. Yeah. Whereas with strangers I think I definitely, you know, I'm talking about like if we go out for dinner with people we don't know very well. I think I definitely incorporate a lot of British politeness into the often quite critical things that I might be saying or I don't know.
[00:16:26.980] - César (Guest)
I guess it depends on the topic. But yeah, I would say so as well. And what about lying? Because sometimes in order to be polite you have to lie. Do, you know, give excuses that are actually a lie?
[00:16:38.880] - Oliver (Host)
When, when I did my university interview, because for Oxford you have to do a variety - well, for my subject, you had to do a variety of different interviews - and I had a philosophy interview and they said in the interview, the opening question was "Is it ever okay to lie?" And then they -
[00:17:00.300] - César (Guest)
Is it ever, what?
[00:17:00.540] - Oliver (Host)
Is it ever okay? Okay, is it ever permissible to lie? And then obviously we had loads of conversation around my initial response. They ask you loads of follow up questions, they ask you to defend your points. But that was actually the question that they asked me at my college and maybe you would get a different, a different answer from some, you know, countries than others whereas, I think I probably started off by saying something about white lies to not hurt people's feelings, which I think is much more common in the UK than in Spain. Firstly, I guess I should actually explain what a white lie is. A white lie is a lie of little importance. So one that it's, it's not like a significant lie, it's one that doesn't really have a big impact on things. And I think that in Spain and in the UK there definitely are different attitudes with regards to that kind of lie, lie where you, you might be lying just not to hurt someone's feelings, especially about things like looks, because I know you've talked in the past about, when you're a teenager, that your family members, not your immediate family, but the extended family, could be very honest about kind of your weight and things like that.
[00:18:13.430] - César (Guest)
Unrequested opinions about my body.
[00:18:15.890] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah, exactly, unrequested, uninvited opinions about your weight and things like that in a way that I think in the UK generally, you know, parents and family members wouldn't comment on that kind of thing or they might even lie to you so as to not hurt your feelings.
[00:18:34.480] - César (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And that's one of our first clashes, no? Or arguments was about that -
[00:18:43.740] - Oliver (Host)
When you called me fat?
[00:18:44.970] - Oliver (Host)
I didn't call you fat. I said, I asked you actually, do (did) you put on weight?
[00:18:51.730] - Oliver (Host)
Because instead of calling me fat, you were like, "Have you gotten fat?"
[00:18:56.330] - César (Guest)
It's completely different. Plus, for me, as a Spanish person, that question was completely normal because I grew up with that question being asked, you know, many times in, in a way more aggressive, more offensive way. But you took it very personal(ly) and then I understood and, and I corrected myself. I learned my lesson and I understand, yeah, why you were so bothered about it.
[00:19:22.460] - Oliver (Host)
I did take it personally, but I, I don't think I was deeply offended, but I can't remember now.
[00:19:27.240] - César (Guest)
I think you shouted at me, basically.
[00:19:28.700] - Oliver (Host)
I don't think I shouted. I remember, I remember exactly where we were on the street at the crossing of Barcelona.
[00:19:34.978] - César (Guest)
No.
[00:19:35.050] - Oliver (Host)
No, it was in Barcelona.
[00:19:36.430] - César (Guest)
Yeah, it was in Barcelona. It was in my room. You took your clothes off, you were changing and so I saw you in your underwear and, "Oh, you put on weight right?" But like in a cutesy way.
[00:19:48.010] - Oliver (Host)
This is a very different vibe to the episode, so changing the topic: do you know one of the things that I think is funny though is that obviously when you're talking about an entire country of almost 70 million people, there's not one standard of politeness, things like that. And I think one of the funny things is, is when you are a non-typical British person in Britain, it's, you know, if you're non-typical in the sense of, not necessarily that British-ly polite, then you interact with the world in a different way. And I was thinking of my dad, because my dad, for example, is very un-British in many respects. One of them, for example, I remember we went to Italy, to Rome, and my dad made us skip the entire queue. There was a queue for hours to get into the Vatican, we just pushed right to the front of it. And obviously no normal British person does that, but it was like scarring for me. I remember feeling so embarrassed. But he has a shamelessness that know this, you know, with queuing, of all things normally a British person wouldn't do. And in fact, my dad, I think, really doesn't like queuing, or must not like queuing.
[00:21:00.810] - Oliver (Host)
Because I also remember once on Christmas Eve, we were going to a shopping centre and there was a very long queue to get into the car park and my dad just turned the car, drove over the grass the whole way over and just like went into a spare space in the car park. And skipped hundreds of cars.
[00:21:17.760] - César (Guest)
And no one said anything.
[00:21:19.470] - Oliver (Host)
I guess not, no. Yeah. I don't remember anyone saying anything in either case. But that's the kind of thing that he would do. But it's so atypical. And I suppose that, yeah, in Italy, if you try to do that, you know, the thing with the car, I think that the Italian drivers, infamous as they are.
[00:21:35.490] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:21:35.710] - Oliver (Host)
Would go mental with the horns. Quite rightly!
[00:21:37.900] - César (Guest)
Everyone would be trying to do the same thing.
[00:21:39.870] - Oliver (Host)
Yeah. There'd be no grass, it would just be loads of tyre tracks. Yeah. But in, in, when, when you are the only person that is, you know, willing to do that kind of thing, then I think that you get away with a lot. So it's quite useful to be different, I think, from, from the typical.
[00:21:59.940] - César (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Do you think you're gonna become more Spanish? You're going to become more direct, more straightforward and less polite?
[00:22:09.400] - Oliver (Host)
I don't think so. I don't know. I guess it's one of those things that happens gradually over time, isn't it? Maybe I'll go home and people will just - well, I mean, it's Britain, so no one will say anything to me, yeah. You know, they'll be saying to all of their friends, "Oliver's become a bit direct." Although, actually, the irony is that my friends already think I'm really direct. You know, my, most of my friends think I'm kind of like intimidatingly honest with my opinions, which you probably find a bit of a joke. But, you know, they've said that to me in front of you.
[00:22:41.650] - César (Guest)
Well, I mean, you, firstly, you, you share a lot. You are, you are a(n) oversharer. No, like. Okay, you share private details very easily with your friends or family members. And also you are, I guess, you also share your opinions, but in a polite way. Always in a polite way.
[00:23:04.730] - Oliver (Host)
I think, I think it actually comes back to what you were saying before about how you treat strangers and how you treat friends. Because I think with strangers I am really indirect, but with friends I think I'm pretty direct.
[00:23:16.590] - César (Guest)
Maybe. Well, you come from a very big family and I also, that, yeah, also that helps.
[00:23:22.230] - Oliver (Host)
I remember a friend of mine, Daniel, he said to me that he came to me when he wanted someone to tell him, why the hell are you doing that? What a stupid thing for you to have done. You know, to give it to him real. And then he has other friends that he goes to when he wants to be told, "Oh no, you've done the right thing", even if he's plainly done the wrong thing. So I don't know. Yeah, I suppose that these rules of politeness, such as they exist, don't really extend to real interactions, as you said. I think you're right because only for strangers -
[00:23:55.410] - César (Guest)
In the long term, if your friends only tell you things that, to make you feel comfortable, to make you feel good, obviously that won't have a positive impact in your life, right? You will never assess your behaviour if everyone is but saying you're right.
[00:24:12.040] - Oliver (Host)
There are loads of friends that do that though. You know, maybe we need to talk about that another time. But there are loads of friends will tell you what you want to hear, here as well, in Spain, even though people are direct, I think there are people that will always tell you what you want to hear. And I think that's separate from politeness for me. Thinking about the topic more now, ironically, because we've done 30 minutes of conversation on it, I think it is, politeness, almost by definition, is something about strangers, no? It's about -
[00:24:41.790] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:24:42.330] - Oliver (Host)
- engaging with people who you don't have a deep relationship with.
[00:24:47.070] - César (Guest)
Yeah. I mean, you say, sorry or thanks way more to me than if you were Spanish, but I agree with you. Yeah.
[00:24:55.820] - Oliver (Host)
Okay. Well, we probably should leave it here because otherwise we'll go over our time.
[00:25:01.930] - César (Guest)
Thank you so much.
[00:25:03.470] - Oliver (Host)
So much. Thank you. It's been - I'm sorry if I talked over you.
[00:25:07.170] - César (Guest)
No, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry if I talked over you.
[00:25:10.790] - Oliver (Host)
Okay.
[00:25:11.130] - César (Guest)
If I said something, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[00:25:13.050] - Oliver (Host)
Thank you, listener as well thank you so much. Remember that it would only be polite to give me five stars.
[00:25:19.210] - César (Guest)
Yeah. Or leave a comment on Spotify.
[00:25:21.900] - Oliver (Host)
A nice comment. A polite comment.
[00:25:23.750] - César (Guest)
Yeah.
[00:25:24.370] - Oliver (Host)
Tell a white lie if you need to. Yeah. Say it's the best thing you've ever heard. Don't be honest. And have a lovely day, week, evening, whatever time -
[00:25:35.260] - César (Guest)
Life.
[00:25:35.880] - Oliver (Host)
Life - that you're listening. Bye-bye.
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